Something to ponder on.
I've just bought a stupidly cheap DVD player to replace my ailing Kiiro X5 (Kiiro doesn't exist any more, so fixing it would not be economic). I got a "Prism D240" from Woolies for £49.99, mainly because it has a small footprint. Into the bargain, were 50 (yes, fifty) films on DVD (double sided, appears not to be a trick). Ok, so most of them are stuff I'd never bother to watch, but who cares?
Anyway, it plays commercial pressings that the Kiiro had trouble with, and it's happy with disks burnt on my nice shiny new Liteon 5045, buit it seems to have difficulties with disks I've burnt on my Vaio using "Click to DVD". They play all right, but I think only the dc coefficient of each block gets decoded, so I can see basic shapes but not details, and no sound. However, it plays perfectly disks burnt on my Dell laptop using Sonic. In both cases the disks were Ritek DVD-R from the same pack.
Now, here's the question: is the problem in the hardware or the software? Supposing I took a Dell-burnt disk and copied it in the Sony, will that play? And vice versa, will a Sony-burnt disk copied in the Dell play?
Before I start doing experiments (which take time and use disks, ok, not a significant expense, but the time's an issue), does anyone have any experience or information on this?
Try DVDinfo this program will read disks and show sector's with errors and test the drives to how well they record etc...
See how you get on and let us know Alan
I tend to prefer Nero CDSpeed to DVDInfoPro. They're very similar, but I've found it to be the case that discs which get a clean bill of health from a surface scan aren't necessarily good burns.
The test I use most often is the Disc Quality one in CDSpeed. This gives you a mark out of 100, and anything over 50 is OK. Surprisingly enough some discs which score 0 will still play OK (but are more prone to stuttering etc in some players). Also look at the PI errors - they should average under 50 (preferably about 20); a bad burn can average over 200.
My experience is that some discs will pass a surface scan test, but if the PI errors are high then you are very likely to encounter stuttering etc.
Hi Gyr
After reading these posts I ran Nero and came up with these results.
PI Errors Maximum 266
Average 77.47
Total 496938
PI failures All 0
Does this mean that I will have problems with DVD's burned on this drive (an AOPEN DUW1608)? And if so is this a drive or a disc (Ritex) problem?
Harry
The results you detail are not good! However they're not exactly disastrous and I would expect it to play OK in most machines. As far as I'm aware it could be either the media or the burner or a combination of the two.
Personally I use mainly Pioneer 107s and 109s, but I've also had two LiteOn burners and they gave me significantly worse results than the Pioneers using Ritek media from the same batch.
Hope that helps.
Gyr, Thanks for your quick reply. I have had some reported problems with "sticky" discs and using your suggestion I tested some discs with Nero. The results from the Pioneer 109 are well below 50 but some from the AOPEN are high as in my last post. I have burned two discs, one from each burner, and will test in a friend's m/c which so far has refused to play one. The best result would be that the one from the Pioneer would work and that would identify the problem. Then it would be Classified ads for a s/h AOPEN burner hardly used!
Thanks
Harry
Just downloaded DVDInfo; s'truth, it's an acronymoholic's playground. Trying to work out what on earth it's all about........
OK, I'm baffled.
I'm running DVDInfo and have put a recorded DVD-R in. It recognises it and tells me all sorts of things. I press the PI PO button and then Start. It tells me its going to do a PIPO test, then immediately goes into Jitter test and stays there. It's been reporting 0% complete for the past 15 minutes and has not yet accessed the DVD itself. I assume it's as confused as I am. Any ideas?
I've been trying to make sense of DVDInfo, but can't, it;s gobbledegook. I presss the PIPO button and get a screen that closely resembels (but isn't quite the same as) the one in the help file. The help file talks about PO buttons and settings, but I get PIF buttons and settings. I can't find PIF in the help file. When I press Start to run the PIPO test, it immediately goes into a Jitter test, but does not access the DVD and stays at 0% completed indefinitely.
Gentlemen, this software doesn't work. It's a bargain as free software, but it is useless when trying to test my DVDs.
What next?
Alan, if the 'Click to DVD' discs play smoothly all the way through but just don't decode properly, then I'd suspect some issue with the encoding or authoring that the Sony software performs rather than disc readability problems. Try opening a vob file from each disc in Bitrate Viewer - http://www.tecoltd.com/bitratev.htm - and see if there is much difference in the MPEG parameters and bitrates.
Try creating a DVD with the trial version of Ulead DVD MovieFactory on the Vaio (and buy a few RW discs to play with). Unfortunately trial and error is really the only way to narrow this sort of problem down.
Tony
I too am a bit confused. For example what does PI & Po mean? Gyr mentioned that (with Nero) a reading of over 50 is good and with the PI errors abelow 50 was OK. However what does a reading of under 50 and a PI of over 50. Also using DVDInfo sometimes gives a conflicting result with Nero's. So how do we know when DVD's are ok, wait till the customer returns?
Harry (slightly perturbed with the slightly changing if DVD's are sent back!)
Let's restate this:
I've made DVDs using the Vaio, "Click to DVD". They play perfectly in the Vaio, in the Dell laptop, in my Liteon 5045 and in my In-Laws' cheapy Matsui player. The new cheapy Prism D240 sort of plays them (all the way through), but only the dc coefficients of the macro-blocks and no sound. That means the titling text has gone and only basic shapes are visible.
I've made DVDs using the Dell, they play fine in all the above. I've made DVDs using the Liteon, same again. The only probem is Vaio-made discs played in the cheapy Prism. I'm trying to find out if the problem's hardware (the DVD transport in the Vaio) or software (Click to DVD). I can run an experiment, using both laptops to copy discs made by the other, that might show where the problem is, but there has to be a more scientific approach. I thought that DVDInfo might provide it, but it simply doesn't work and the help file seems to be describing different software. I've sent off an email to the author (in Oz) and am waiting for a reply. I'm certainly not going to start trying more software until I know what the problem is; since I'm only making DVDs for domestic use, I don't intend to spend significant money anyway.
I would suggest that sony's click-to-dvd is making too high a quality dvd , BITRATE too high , and that is causing the machine to fail , especially if you choose 'high quality'.
Maybe need to write at single speed for disks to work on cyberhome/prism dvd player.
I see at least one person says it won't play bulkpaq/princo , but no surprise there as i've always found princo disks to be c**p.
One disk was HQ, another SP (middle setting), both give the same result. I don't think it's speed. But I'll do a few experiments. What I'd really like to know is why DVDInfo doesn't work, because that could tell me an awful lot about the disks themselves.
DVDinfo is working for me ..... maybe you need to re-install , it does state it needs a specific dll to run properly , or at least my version did during install routine.
It runs ok, but locks up on the PIPO test.
I've emailed Nic, the author, and he's replied already. I've sent him the log files. He's said that Sony tend to use Liteon drives, which he says are rubbish (although my Liteon 5045 makes disks that everything can play, so.......).
I'm now in the process of trying copying disks on both laptops. I'll post results.
Sorry but I can't comment re DVDInfoPro as I don't have it loaded anymore (though my experience tallies with Nic's comment that LiteOn do not make good DVD burners).
Harry, here are couple of comments, though bear in mind that I am not a technically minded person:-
1. The Disc Quality test will give you an overall mark out of 100. I've never yet had a disc score 100%, but I have had 98. However with Pioneer burners and good quality discs I would expect a result of about 60%. My LiteOn burner typically gives me a score of about 20 (ie with discs from the same batch it produces an inferior burn to my Pioneers). Note that those LiteOn discs still play correctly in a wide range of machines, but my experience is that they are more likely to suffer from stuttering etc on some DVD players (almost invariably cheapo ones).
2. As well as giving you an overall score the Disc Quality test also produces various other figures. These include statistics for PI and PO (Parity In and Parity Out). I'm not really sure what these are, but basically I think it's a measure of the readability of the disc. You will get an average (and a peak) figure for errors. Obviously the fewer errors the better, so here (unlike the overall Disc Quality score) you want a low figure. Typically with my Pioneers I get an average PI error of about 20, but anything under 50 is OK. With some cheap discs I mistakenly bought in the past I would get an average PI error of over 200 (and that was indeed reflected in stuttery playback in my test DVD players).
I hope that makes it clearer.
Progress.
I just copied a disc made on the Dell, using the Vaio. It plays fine on all players I have access to. So that points the problem towards Click to DVD. Next step is to copy a disc made on the Vaio, using the Dell. Tedious, but thorough, that's me.
Alan,
Don't knock yourself.
No one here thinks you're tedious!
;)
Bob C
I remember back in the early days of dvd writers, everyone assumed that the writers were at fault and the folks from Pioneer kept saying that the drive was only part of the equation, and the software had a major role in compatibility. I know that when DVD+r first came out and even today they fool most of the players by setting the id bits to a DVD-rom There used to be some software that allowed you to g in and set these bits and it resloved a lot of issues. Don't know if anything still exists but it might be interesting to see if makeing the dvd look like a dvd rom would actually help
John
I'm not going to do a test, Vaio disk copied on the Dell, I think I know what the result will be. I'm going to try Ulead software on the Vaio instead. But that's brought me a whole new raft of problems. It seems I've already registered my email address at Ulead, but I can't recall any password, so I fill in the "remind me" page and hit Submit, then I get an error page. I've sent off 4 (four) error reports to Ulead, and have yet to hear a peep from them. It's galling that they're prepared to let me try their software free for a while, but won't let me do it because their web software's thowing wobblies of it's own. If there's a way that software can be broken, I'll find it.
Ho hum.
Alan, try these direct links to the DMF4 trial version:
http://ftp.ulead.com/pub/Trial/DVDMF4/dmf4_trialadv_e.exe
http://ftp.ulead.com.tw/pub/Trial/DVDMF4/dmf4_trialadv_e.exe
Tony
Cheers, that seems to be working. Now let's wait and see what Ulead say :D
Hi Gyr, Thanks for your reply from yesterday. It does make it a bit clearer and maybe after some experimenting I might be able to identify whether the discs are faulty or the AOPEN drive.
Harry
I've just completed the experiment by burning another disk on the Vaio, same material, same media (Ritek-R from Lynx), but using Ulead DVDMovieFactory4. It plays fine on everything. So I was right to query whether the problem was hardware or software, Click to DVD is the culprit, not the media or the burner.
So, now I'm in business. Thanks for the help chaps, now all I have to do is to find a way to get Ulead to let me get hold of it legitimately (still can't get past the membership page at Ulead).
Alan i know I am joining in late but the Vaio references rang a warning bell with me.
My desktop has been in the loft for sometime while the house was in redecorating turmoil and I have been using only my Vaio laptop.
I know this is the other way round from you. My Vaio has only DVD player so I have been using my ADS external firewire box to hold my LG burner.
I had some old non ritek disks about and used them before trying ritek which I bought at a computer fair(in a hurry)
The old disks were fine, but I got inexplicable failures on a few of the riteks
I bought my next lot from lynx and I still get the occasional failure.
The interesting bit is that they all are a bit dodgy when played back in the Vaio, even the good ones.
Even when they play alright any searching through them in mediaplayer or the like tends to cause the computer to crash.
I am wondering if it possible that there could be any possibility that there could be some clash with the riteks and something in the makeup of the Vaio, or am I going off into the realms of the supernatural.
BobA
I pass on that, but I'll restate the case my full as I now understand it.
I have two laptops, a Vaio (2.8G, does most of my office work as well as everything else) and a Dell (1.8G, wide screen Celeron, bought really as a spare). Both have dvd burners (unknown hardware) and software installed at purchase (Sony = Click to DVD, Dell = Sonic). Using only Ritek DVD-R bought from Lynx, who I trust, I made the following:
Vaio: 2 discs from dv tapes.
Dell: 2 discs from the same dv tapes.
All discs play in both laptops (made 3 of each, to make sure), and in my Liteon 5045 PVR/DVD burner, and in my in-laws Matsui cheapie. Discs from the Dell play properly in a Prism D240 cheapie, but the Vaio discs play only the dc coefficients (so blocky shapes) and no sound. If I copy a Dell-made disc in the Vaio, that plays perfectly on all players. so it isn't the burner in the Vaio, it's Click to DVD that isn't getting it quite right, and the Prism finds the problems, which is what I bought it for.
I've now proved this by making a disc on the Vaio using Ulead DVDMovieFactory, and that plays properly on everything. So the problem is Sony's software, not their hyardware.
Initially I had a problem with picture shape; the two dv tapes I put to disc were copies of downconverted HD, 16:9, but the dv tape was flagged as 4:3, probably because the JH3/DSR45 combination doesn't properly hand on the flags. I fixed that by capturing both tapes and re-rendering them in a 16:9 project, so now it all works as it should. I'm impressed with the Ulead software, it's cheap and flexible, and it works, that's good enough for me. I'll be installing it on both machines so that I can move prjects around.
For the time being, this is now all solved, the problem was/is Sony's Click to DVD.
I have just bought a Pioneer A109 for the m/c which has an AOPEN drive fitted. After some experimenting burning the same ISO file to a disc from a new batch , using DVDInfo the AOPEN's discs give a very high PI reading whilst the Pioneer burned discs have a very low PI. The ones burned in the Pioneer will play on my friend's DVD player but it won't play the AOPEN burned discs. I have another m/c with a Pioneer A109 fitted and it also gives low PI readings.
I know it is only a small sample and time will tell but thanks Gyr for pointing me in the right direction. I hope I have found the answer to customer returns.
Harry
My problems are now all solved; junked Click to DVD and use Ulead Movei Factory instead. I'm happy now.
Thanks for the feedback Harry. I've never used an AOpen burner, but I'm not surprised to find that the results are worse than with a Pioneer drive.
If you're supplying duplicated (ie burnt) discs to customers then I do think that using software like DVDInfo or CDSpeed is a big help in checking the quality of the discs you're producing.
All the Best
Gyr
Had the same problem as alan with DVDInfoPro. Click the PIPO button and start, the program just hangs on 0% forever. It hopeless. Anyone solved this yet?
I emailed the author about this, and got a reply fairly quickly. He said that my Vaio has probably got a Liteon drive in it, and they're "terrible". He also commented on my use of Ritek disks, saying that there are lots of fake one about (I got them from Lynx, and I trust Ian, so I think they're fine). He asked me to send the log files for the failed attempts to get it working, I did, and have heard nothing since.
Just to complete the story, I've isolated the problem to Sony's "Click to DVD" software; if I exclude that by using the Vaio (and therefore the drive that DVDInfo has problems with) to copy a disk made on a Dell, it works. Also, if I exlcude Cick to DVD by using Ulead Movie Factory on the Vaio instead, the disks play on everything. So, it isn't the Vaio, or the disks, or the DVD unit in it, it's Click to DVD that's dubious.
It pays to be systematic in this game.
Thanks alan. It's a nightmare trying to track down problems with so many variables. I've had this LG burner for a while now, and it's rarely let me down (just the occasional bad burn like any drive). I had a pioneer 105 before that and it stank. All the discs that i made on that drive no longer play, or copy.
Swithched to the LG and it all changed for the better. But now that seems to be playing up a little too, not as bad as the pioneer but enough to worry me. Maybe the drive has come to the end of its life. My computer is left on 24/7, which can't be good for any of the mechanical componants. So maybe its time to buy a new drive, they're very cheap now.
Can anyone recomend anything? What are the latest pioneer drives like?
Sony, LG etc... anyone know what to buy, or what not to buy?
By the way... it's interesting you say there are a lot of fake ritek discs about. I use traxdata ritek bought from a computer fair. Perhaps i should avoid fairs? You recomend lynx like many other here, might just give them a go.
I'm not saying there are lots of fakes around, I'm passing on comments from the author of DVDInfo. But commonly held beliefs support that view.
Captainstefan,
I have had problems with a year old Benq (partially alleviated by updated firmware) , which produces -R disks that play OK in computers, but are not read by my Panasonic E95R.
An LG multi-burner bought at the same time has yet to produce a disc which does not play. These have played in a variety of players and recorders, both in the UK and New Zealand, and in both PCs and Macs. I have not updated the firmware as it is in a firewire box, and needs to be attached to EIDE to update.
I have used a mixture of Panasonic disks plus Verbatim and Ritek 4X -R, bought from Lynx.
Swithched to the LG and it all changed for the better. But now that seems to be playing up a little too, not as bad as the pioneer but enough to worry me. Maybe the drive has come to the end of its life. My computer is left on 24/7, which can't be good for any of the mechanical componants. So maybe its time to buy a new drive, they're very cheap now.
I had been using Verbatim disks from day 1. Recently I started getting copy failures using Verbatim x 8 in my duplicator bank which uses Pioneer 105's.
The Pioneer 108 handled these disks fine.
I switched brands (Taiyo Yuden) recently and have not had any failures. There is some information at dvdhs.com about drives which conform to new DVD-R specification for x8 drives.
Thanks again for all the input, i'll experiment a bit more and see what happens.