Dual Layer DVD - result of my first test

thanks for the info Ray.... think i will stick with my trusty old 106 and 107... they work fine....

What did u use to burn the DVD. I have spruce which may offer better encoding options for the layer break.

Si

Si

DVD Moviefactory. Not what I would choose if I had the choice, but it was available with the DL update. There appeared to be no options for playing around with the layer break.

Spruce as a company was bought out and folded by Apple over three years ago. Which Spruce product do you have that includes support for a Dual Layer +R standard that was only agreed earlier this year?

Ray Liffen

I've got a copy of Virtuso that i mess around with from time to time. I was just saying that if you used a programme like spruce (which you can find on the web ;) ) make your dual layered disk and then burn the .iso with nero or something like that. Just a thought

Si

Spruce DVD Maestro & Virtuoso are as old as the hills and of course speak dual layer which has always been part of the DVD spec.

Just to re-iterate what others have said - the likelihood of Spruce or any relative being able to write to Double Layer DVD+R is close to zero.

That said, if anyone who has the software fancies trying it using the burn-ISO/Nero trick, I'm sure we'd all be keen to hear the results.

I can now also add that we'd done further testing on two further Double Layer DVD Video discs which were prepared by a reader - one on a LiteOn, the other on an NEC ND-2510A.

Both exhibit the same problems that we saw in our tests of the Double Layer DVD Video discs that Peter Wells produced.

:(

Bob C

Spruce Virtuoso will certainly author a double layer disc – and make an excellent job of it too. It won’t write it to any of the DL burners because obviously the hardware isn’t supported by it (it only supports the Pioneer 103 and S200 and DLT writers)– but it can write an img file - which can then simply be burnt by any SW that supports img files and the hardware (Prassi for example – does Nero do this too?).

The thing with testing compatibility at the moment is the same as when DVD burners first arrived – it’s difficult to tell whether the problems are with the burners, the media or the authoring software. Often it was the latter.

At least by using something tried and tested like Virtuoso (which, along with Maestro, is still widely used in professional authoring) it takes one variable out of the loop.

I don’t have any DL burners here but I’d be happy to author a suitable img file and send it to someone to burn – so long as there’s no urgency, as, being a wedding company, this is a very busy time of year (hence sitting in my office at a PC at 9.00 on a Sunday morning!!

Bob

Have you asked the manufacturers to supply you working D/L DVD's?

If so, how did they achieve success.

Which players work for them with D/L DVD's?

Regards

Hi
I've just read a post by a LaCie tech guru about how they get a NEC ND2510 burner to make successful dual layer disks...
"Several points to consider
- we have different firmware than the normal 2510
- we have a different default book setting for the drive
- we have different firmware in the FireWire/USB bridge
These changes were necessary for good compatibility on the Mac and PC.
Normal firmware of the 2510 may not work as expected."
From
http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@248.4PlOa5lrrlB.0@.68970f68

Whilst the Toast/MacOSX issues won't be relevant here, the firmware rewrite probably is.
Regards

Quote from Gerry Roffey.

"The thing with testing compatibility at the moment is the same as when DVD burners first arrived – it’s difficult to tell whether the problems are with the burners, the media or the authoring software. Often it was the latter."

Is there not a 4th variable here, the "set top" DVD Player to make it even more difficult. It is so infuriating when you produce a "Home made" DVD and it will work on some but not other players and the one's that don't work or don't work as expected don't all fall over in the same way in different machines and it's not always the cost of the player, some of the "economy" ones play better than the expensive ones, albeit without some of the features.

Paul W. H

That's the point of testing compatability - i.e. compatible with most set top players

The upshot of all this may well be that we have to wait a couple of months for authoring software
to be a going concern. It seems to me from what I have read so far that the burners are OK and the media may need a "Tweak" at the layer break / Transition point
Someone point me in the right direction if my thinking is wrong Thanks

My take on the situation is that the media itself might be okay...

I've noticed that a few early adopters have updated the firmware of their burners, to find that the compatibility of their discs has changed. Notice I say 'changed' and not 'improved' - apparently, many players that initially didn't like DL discs now do, while some that did now spit them out in disgust.

And then there's the software itself. Granted, DL-support currently only exists at the entry level, but none of them allow users to specify where a layer break should fall. In pro software, layer breaks are placed at chapter points, so as to ensure there are no momentary pauses mid-chapter when the player's lens refocusses. With these entry-level programs, the second layer of DL discs begins when the first is full - regardless of how that ultimately affects playback.

It's all an icky can of worms. :(

Pete

The curious aspect in all this is the way that DL seems to have taken the manufacturers (of disks, of burners, of software) by surprise.

Were the makers of Ritek and Ricoh and all those other disk makers quietly dozing in the corner while the burnable DL standard was being formulated? Did they open one sleepy eye and say "Our machines are going flat out supplying the world demand for SL disks but is there REALLY going to be a market for DL?" before dozing off again and doing nothing?

Did the guys down at ULead and Sonic say "We can't see much demand for properly-featured DVD9 programs for a year or more, so lets just patch our programs with the minimum necessary to burn the disks and leave it at that".

Did the guys at NEC and LiteOn and Sony say "Our new drives will burn DL. Well, that is, they should do. Well, actually we haven't really tried because the disks and software aren't available yet. But they should work. Definitely. Are the disks compatable with domestic DVD players? Probably. Some of them. Well, if they aren't we've got an idea for a firmware update. That might work. Perhaps."

It makes you proud to be a consumer in such a business, doesn't it?

Ray Liffen

The Question has to be, why are we in this situation (again) ?

Surely logic says that the Burner Manufacturers work WITH the Media Manufacturers until they have a perfect working product, then the Authoring Publishers can do their bit and everything should work.

Is this a classic case of the consumer doing the research for what does and does not work.

Paul W. H

I got a circular from Lynx this morning which says "we expect that on pre-2004 players, compatibility is unlikely to improve with the retail discs".

If that is the case then as far as I can see DL is useless if you were hoping to use it commercially. What can you do - send a DL disc out with a note saying their DVD player must be post-2004 to play it.

There are millions of pre-2004 DVD players, so I'm staying away from DL until these compatability problems are sorted, and on current evidence I'm doubtful that will happen.

I asked that same question last week, no they were not sleeping, it is just that the process for making a DL disc is much, much more complicated than an SL disc.

Although there's not much change needed to the line, there are two/three extra levels added to the manufacturing process, you are in effect, making two discs and sticking them together very carefully, unlike SL, with DL everything must be 10000% perfect, if it isn't, the disc is scrap (or sold out the back door to the box shifters).

The two main manufacturers have had, and I quote, "an awful lot of problems making the discs to the specs they was given" and this has in turn, caused weeks of delays while the lines are fine tuned and recalibrated.

The other problem that is affecting supplies is the two main manufacturers have back orders to complete before us mere mortals get hold of the media, most of the drive manufacturers want to bundle discs with drives and so this is having a knock on effect on retail supplies of discs because there simply isn't any spare capacity, when the lines are running.... they are only making discs for the back orders.

Of course, some graded stock will filter out the back door at Ritek, but those whov'e recived our newsletter know our policy on these (at least Mitsubishi have the self respect to scrap the graded stock)

Popped into KVJ at Aldgate East yesterday for tapes. They are expecting supplies of Verbatim DL 8.5 "next week".

Ray Liffen

Thanks for the extra info Ian. Can I just get this clear in my mind - even if a DL disc is manufactured 100% (or even 10000%) perfectly it will still have only limited compatability with pre-2004 DVD players - correct?

So DL discs are only an option if you have a compatible player; so basically you can't share them with friends or use them commercially.

Is there any easy way of checking whether a DVD player is DL compatible - will it say something in the technical info?

Ian

Did the group of companies that agreed the DVD9 +R standard KNOW that the resulting disks would have compatability problems with pre-2004 players? Or did it come as a surprise? In other words, conspiracy or cock-up?

Any news from the -R group of companies?

Ray Liffen

"conspiracy or cock-up?"

I would imagine that "Hollywood" would do anything they could to help delay it.

Paul W. H

Excuse me if I'm repeating myself, but I've said this to so many people for so many months I can't remember who I've actually said it too...

Yes. The only way to make a pre-DVD+R DL player that isn't compatible is a firmware upgrade for the reader unit, and most manufacturers can't even do firmware upgrades for the mainboard's let alone the reader.

Technical info? don't make me laugh.

No idea, I only sell em, don't make em
Philips have a long, very long, history of not thinking things through and making lemons, so I'd imagine when designing the system their only worry was to get it working first, worry about compatibility later.

A cynical person would say Philips were only interested in being the first with DL discs, rather than being the BEST with DL discs.

oh and we'll have Verbatim next week, £9.99 ea.

Interesting there hasn't been any more news isn't it?

If I was the Forum, I'd wait for Philips to destroy their reputation (or have they already done that?), then come in with a system that works correctly, rather than what Philips has done.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging off the DVD+RW Alliance, they've dropped a very good spin onto the format war, but, when DL was first announced I said to Bob to forget it for Video use as it wouldn't work because of the way the disc is constructed.

Its possible that changing the bitsetting on the disc to DVD-ROM will improve it slightly, but at the end of the day, the laser in the DVD Player will only do what it's told to do by it's firmware, and if it doesn't know how to focus onto a DL disc, then nothing short of a firmware upgrade will cure it, if your looking for other reasons that a disc won't play, then your simply chasing you tail.

I think some problems are because the layer break's are not set correctly, but again, doing that will only improve compatibility on a player than can read the first layer but not the second.

If a player can't read the first layer, forget it.

In my humble opion of course

BTW, the official title for the format is DVD+R DL.

Well as far as I can see there's no point worrying about whether DL discs are manufactured correctly - if they're incompatible with most of the DVD players out there, then to my mind they're useless.

The people I feel sorry for are the ones who don't have the benefit of threads like this one and buy a DL burner and discs in the not unreasonable assumption that they'll be compatible with their pre-2004 DVD player.

Quote

"The people I feel sorry for are the ones who don't have the benefit of threads like this one and buy a DL burner and discs in the not unreasonable assumption that they'll be compatible with their pre-2004 DVD player."

Taking this a stage further if the burner comes from shop "A", the media from shop "B", the authoring software from shop "C" and the DVD Player from shop "D" where do you stand legaly re: "Not fit for the purpose etc." because all the retailers will be blaming each other.

Paul W. H

DVD Recordable discs have never been, and never will be, sold or advertised as being 100% compatible with every DVD Player on the market (I know people do, but they very quickly change things), so Paul W.H., you cannot go for the media as being "not fit for the purpose".

DVD Recordable media is sold as a Recordable disc compatible with a set top / pc dvd recorder of the same format - as I've mentioned dozens of times previously, DVD-VIDEO is not the same format as Recordable DVD only thing similar is the size of the disc....

You could however, go for the supplier of the burner or the player if either of them advertised the product as being/making 100% compatible equipment.

The terms "Compatible with most" or "Compatible with the majority" do not mean compatible with all.

I fully agree with Paul D, it doesn't matter whether the discs are manufactured correctly, for the uses that we want them for, they're useless at the moment. You'll also notice that in Verbatim's main advertising, they do not mention video, and are only pushing the point of data archiving and testing for glass mastering.

Ian

I fully understand where you are coming from and what you are saying.

However, as far as Jo Public is concerned they are Blank DVD's and like Blank CD's, Blank VHS Tapes or Floppy Disks they should work out of the box.

Incidentally the last lot of DVD-R's I purchased are completely unbranded and in a shrink rapped "Cake Box" with no information about compatabitity or anything else.

Paul W. H

Yea, I know what your saying, a DVD is a DVD to JP, the bit after matters not a jot.

Hi to all from a cold Queensland Aust.
Pardon a mere antidiluvian asking this BUT, what are D/L discs made of / format/etc if Hollywood can use them and they play on every conceivable DVD set top box and computer that Bill and Steve ever invented?

If they exist as D/L then why in Gods name reinvent the wheel?

Why cant WE buy what the movie producers use that media?
Then, as this media already exists since the Pliocene, cant all DVD DL burners work off that set of rules rather than reinventing themselves?

Or am I too non profit to see the answer?

Phil Macqueen

Phil
No doubt someone here more accomplished will come along with the technical specs, but, in short, hollywood films etc are "pressed" on machines in large volumes from a master and (from a playback viewpoint) nothing like "recorded" dvd's.

My first dvd player (a smart 2000) was supposedly the beez neez in it's day but would not touch a recorded single layer disk for love nor money.

How cold is "cold" in Queensland, 30 degrees C?

Regards
Ken

Yea, a pressed DVD has the pits and tracks in the bottom plastic "substract" of the disc, and I think the second "layer" is on the other side of the substract.

A recordable DVD has the tracks and pits in the dye, the pits are made by the recording laser, the dye is layed in between the two substracts.

A DL disc is three or four (can't remember) substracts glued together, the dye is layered between the second and third substract, and needs to be an exact length away from the first later, when burning, the drive simply has to re-focus onto the two different layers (the dye is by it's nature, about 30% transparant).

As I said before, a pressed disc has a set distance between the two layers, and a DL disc has this too, but the distance is different, the laser in the player only does what it knows to do from it's firmware, so with a DVD-Video it's no problem to focus onto the second layer, but with a recordable disc the layer is further away, and so unless the laser knows to refocus to a different distance, it fails.

We've not yet got to the stage of AI in dvd players

Sorry to go on about this, but there are massive differences between a DL pressed and recorded disc, I suppose you could liken it to a car, putting diesel into a petrol car will work, but not very well, diesel and petrol engines both produce power, but in different ways...

Hi From a sunnier Queensland
Max temp in Winter today is 24 C and last night down to 12 C!
OK I get the picture. Commercial DVD's are like a casting and weve gotta do it differently like a hand make in jewellery manufacturing.
I hope the technology keeps going on it as its obviously a worthwhile ambition and goal
all this talk of DL stuff and 16x burners is a pain in the rotunda.
I am having diff getting 8x printable media! 4x is 70 cents each and the Princo 8x(when I can find it) is $3 each. Makes for expensive burning.
I'll stick to 4x for a while

Thanks for the enlightenment

Phil

ROFLMA Princo media £1.20?

Ray, check your email and give me a shout, changing the firmware on the ND-2510 to rev 1.05 will dramatically improve your experience

I'm happy to admin when I've been wrong and it seems that as long as you set the bitsetting to DVD-ROM the playback ability of the DL discs improves no end, of 5 players tested yesterday (4 of which are more than 4 years old) when bitsetting to DVD+R DL all but one refused to play, when changing to DVD-ROM, all but one PLAYED the discs.

Ian

I'll email you separately, but for others in the same position, I'm a little confused about firmware versions for the ND-2510. In the message above you suggest changing to rev 1.05. Nero says my 2510 drive is at present on 2.15. By email you have pointed me towards an upgrade to 2.16. Where does 1.05 fit into this?

Ray

my bad sorry, typing too quick, should have written v2.05, but forget what I said anyway, I typed that before Herrie released the firmware.

But, go for 2.16 from Herrie, it's the same firmware slightly modified for Ritek discs, there seems to be two different versions of the 2510A floating around (UK & Grey?) so whatever firmware yours has relates to what upgrade path you take.

rev. 2.05 update to 2.06
rev. 2.15 update to 2.16

Before Bob points it out to me, on a legal standpoint of view, the Herrie firmwares are unauthorised modifications of the original NEC binary files, and using these firmwares will invalidate your warranty.

In case anyone hasn't already seen it, PC Magazine's (US) on-line commentary on DL may be of interest:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1631715,00.asp
They report similar incompatibility issues as identified in the CV test.