DVD length again

Hi Bob,
There are 2 aspects:
1)Quality.
Higher the quality, potentially better picture, but higher risk of dvd not being able to keep up with data rate on replay - especially if playing on different machine to which it was recorded.
On pc's usually set as 'bit rate' and on set-top recorders, HQ,SP,LP etc

2)Length of content.
My pc burning process means about 90-135 mins gives me a full disk and good playability on other players.

If it is only to play back on your own player, you can set the quality as high as possible - but will probably only get 1 hour on 1 DVD.

Currently sounds like you have quality on something like LP, as you have a fair amount of content on DVD with plenty spare.

So, 'up' the quality setting.

Mention your DVD recording process (software/set-top?) for more specific info.

Bob: to help your investigations - put the DVD in a computer, and find out how big the VIDEO_TS folder is. About 4.3GBytes will fill the DVD (about 4.7 billion bytes).

How many minutes of footage that translates to, depends, as said above, on the amount of compression used.

On average and when done on consumer kit like PCs and home PVRs, 1 hour filling the DVD is about DV quality, 2 hours is about S-VHS, 3 hours is about VHS. If Hollywood is doing nthe compression, you can usually get between 50% and 100% more minutes at each setting (i.e. a 2-hour movie will be DV quality, 3 hours will be about S-VHS etc). At least, that's my experience.

As Mooblie, says, 4.3GB is about the capacity of a single layer DVD, so for that to be filled by a 60-minute video, the data rate would be 4.3x2^30/60/60*8=15.4Mbits/second. No DVD player or recorder can run that fast, the best you'll get reliably is around 8Mb/s, so you can safely aim for a 120 minute video to fill it comfortably.

I am editing a holiday DVD, which I have done many times before and I usually keep Home DVDs down to a very short length. Therefore using DVD workshop 2 I burn using best quality, 60 mins.

The DVD I made which was just over 30mins (longer than usual) was absolutely fine.

I decided to make a longer rougher version as I always used to in the days of VHS.

It turned out about 88mins and some seconds, so I set the quality to second best, which workshop states should give 90 mins.

Parts of the video when there is a lot of movement have turned out really pixelated and I am not being hypercritical. I mean really pixilated.

I would have been dissapointed if I had set it to LP and got that quality. I think I have a problem with those particular files so will have to try again with other footage.

What puzzles me though is that the file size on the disk is 3.3gb and I was expecting something like 4gb at least for the length.(over 88mins)

If I can put more than 90 mins on the second best setting I should be able to put more than 60 mins on the best setting.

Sorry to go on but while typing I have just had a thought. I am using 16x9 instead of 4x3 which I have always used till recently. Would that account for the difference in disk space?

BobA

No - whether the final result is letterboxed (ugh!) or anamorphic (yay!), 16:9 footage takes roughly the same storage space as 4:3 footage.

Letterbox might compress a bit better, because of all the wasted (black) space, but I doubt you'd notice when comparing durations/file sizes, etc.

Hi Bob,
Don't use Workshop myself - but you demonstrate it's estimate isn't reliable, so I'd be inclined to go for your original setting (HQ?) and hope it fits.
There is often an option to burn the dvd as a folder to hardrive, while you are testing, saving you a few blank DVD's .
PC dvd player then needs to be pointed to this folder to play it.
This folder can then later be copied to DVD via likes of Nero.

It's your use of the term 'pixellated' that has me foxed Bob. As the other posts have said, putting an hour onto DVD at 8 mbps is grand, and 90 mins will fit comfortably encoded at 6 mbps. Thing is most people find it hard to spot the difference between these two settings (assuming a good encoder) but the clues are indeed there - especially in the fades and dissolves.

The sharpness difference is almost invisible, but the graininess and MPEG2 colour artefacts are much more obvious at the 6 mbps setting, so the pixellation you're seeing is more likely to be your DVD player I'd think. Are you using the WS2 encoder? I've not seen any difference in space allocation between 4:3 and 16:9 , and nor do I expect to.

tom.

Thanks all.

I will experiment with times for HQ Dave and with other clips. If I remember Nero allows more control over quality settings? Will it burn menus created in WS2?

Tom, the term pixellated , little squares on the screen when there is a lot of movement?

I am creating an AVI in Premier 6.5 and encoding with WS2 which I have done many times . The only difference is the length and I am beginning to think that may be a red herring for something else going on.

I will keep trying :)

BobA

PS The fault is still there when playing on the PC and I have touted it around for others to try. Awaiting results

BobA

Yes, I know what pixellation looks like - it's just that I've not seen it on my own DVDs unless the player can't keep up. It's never 'encoded' thus onto the disc as far as I'm aware.

The pixellation happens when the scene motion is so fast (and in disparate directions) that the MPEG coder can't work out how to code it properly, so gives up. I'd guess you've got some fast camera pans or rotations or zooms at that point, or some pretty violent motion within the scenes. Nothing yo can do about that now. But, you can get a better MPEG coding by using a 2-pass coder; 1st time through, the coder simjply works out how complex each frame or group of frames is, secind pass does the coding, assigning higher bit rates to the complex bits, less so to the simpler bits. Usually, you get better image quality this way but it takes longer to do. Procoder Express does this sort of thing very nicely, ands is cheap.

Personally I use premiere pro or encore to create menus and encode.
I was referring to Nero to use it as a tool purely to take the folder(with video_ts and audio_ts) on your hard drive (alreadyt encoded via WS2 or other) and copy it to physical dvd. I have not used Nero for video encoding, so can't comment on that aspect.

It's not the answer to your immediate issue, but you may wish to upgrade to premiere pro from 6.5 for the extra functionality it gives for dvd creation- although some dislike the later version as 'effects' have a slightly different interface - more akin to 'after affects'.

This is the answer - the use of a two pass encode. Keeping the same mean bitrate to ensure the files will fit on the DVD, a good encoder saves on the frames where there is little change from one to the next to use a higher bitrate on the frames where it is all change.

As Alan R says, Procoder Express is first rate at this - I tried out four or five encoders a couple of years ago and found that it was clearly the best. Unfortunately, it is no longer available as a stand-alone product, only as part of Edius. Canopus in their wisdom (???) have withdrawn it. They still maintain their draconian policy on issuing activation codes when you are forced to re-install (it is a Premiere plug-in, if Premiere is present) though, and these are issued by a third party.

Cinema Craft basic is the best currently available cheap stand-alone encoder, and it does good two pass encoding..

Tom, I wasn't being sarcastic. I guessed that you would know what Pixellation was, I was just making sure that I did.

BobA

The problem is that you are not taking control over the bitrates being used to compress your video (and audio). You have selected a template that is most likely using 4000kbps for video, and LPCM audio (wasted space, unless you're more interested in the audio for your DVD).

For 88 minutes, customize your project settings accordingly using a bitrate calculator -- I use the one at videohelp.com/calc.htm

Given 88 minutes, I'd encode with Dolby Digital audio at 224kbps (assuming your version of DVDWS has that option), and set the video bitrate to ~7000kbps (CBR should be fine instead of VBR).

Regards,
George

I have become complacent over the years with my short DVDs, It looks like I will have to look to a two pass solution if I want to extend my DVD times.

I assume that you just encode your AVIs with it and then put it into WS2 ?

I seem to remember when this subject came up (again years ago) there was a problem with Workshop recoding afterwards?

George, WS2 doesn't seem to give any choice of encoding other than Best quality, good quality etc. I do remember using something that did do this in the past, but don't remember what. Could it have been WS1?

I did produce an ISO in WS2 and it came out at 5.7 gb which sounds about right.

It looks like WS2s second best quality is much lower than 90 mins.

BobA

Bob, don't ignore George's advice. Sound can occupy a surprisingly large proportion of the bitrate. If your dvd has good music on it, you might well want to keep wav audio, but it takes a lot of bit-rate. when you're struggling for bit-rate or capacity, you must consider the sound options, 224kb/s is ok for speech and incidental music, and you can drop even further if it's only speech. Just remember that uncompressed audio is 16-bit stereo at 48kHz, and that means 2x16x48000=1,536,000 bits/second, about 20% of the maximum data rate that a dvd player can cope with. Using the bulk of that data for video instead of audio may well solve your problems.

The world of headphone wearing MP3 listeners are probably happy playing their music recorded at half that bit rate, aren't they Alan?

As usual, I agree with Alan R, but we do not all have access to Dolby encoding - Encore is one (expensive) option - which has to be bought.

In PAL land we are allowed the luxury of mpeg audio encoding, which is free, if your encoder includes it, and saves bucket loads of precious bits, whilst still sounding OK

Hi Bob,

Which version of DVDWS are you running. They all had mpeg audio, and DVDWS2.x should have Dolby Digital audio as well (unless your version came bundled with some card, and is a "light" version).

You should also be able to EDIT the templates -- look for a tab that allows you to EDIT your project compression settings, or even CREATE your own template to use for future projects.

Regards,
George

A lot of my radio listening is Radio 7, which is at only 80kb/s and sounds ok to me (on PC speakers). Eeven Radio 3 on DAB is only 192kb/s. So don't be afraid of using the lower bitrates of AAC.

DVD workshop 2

Thanks for persevering all. I have got so used to using the same settings for so long I had forgotten about the template editing.

My good quality is indeed only 4000, and needs editing. I remembered the template editing as soon as I saw it. I can now tailor my disks individually, until the next time I forget.

I will look at the sound as well, but as an old Hi-Fi fan of the 60s and 70s it goes against the grain to deliberately deteriate the sound, even though most of the sound going on there is no great shakes anyway. I will bite the bullet when I have to.

now to try again :)

BobA

Bob, I'm with you on that, I started out in sound as well. But it's the overall package yuo're dealing with, not just the sound. AAC3 at 224kb/s is pretty good, and at 384 I can't tell it from uncompressed on most material outside of lab testing.

An interesting turn, I remembered the free TMPGEnc AVI to Mpeg that I had long ago and downloaded the latest version.

It would not accept the AVI that I have been using, but will take the oringinal AVIs that I made it from.

It looks like there may be something wrong with the AVI that I made.

BobA

Can anybody help me with the setting for Premiere 6.5?

As I said any new AVI that I produce from Premiere cannot be recognised by TMEGEnc, while original AVIs captured from DV are recognised in TMPGEnc.

I have found that Premiere captures and produces Microsoft DV AVIs and when exporting as Microsoft DV produces AVIs that TMPGEnc doesn't recognise.

By experimenting I have found that if I export as Microsoft AVI (not DV) then TMPGEnc will recognise them and deal with them. The trouble is that rendering time for the Microsoft AVIs is something like 3-4 mins for 3secs.

I suspect that I have always used the Microsoft DV setting without problem in the past.

I am also finding Premiere keeps changing its settings to NTSC for exporting and I may have made the offending DVDs in NTSC.

I have to do a hell of a lot of experimenting, but I would be grateful for the following information.

The capture and exporting settings for Pemiere 6.5 and does anyone know how to find out if a DVD is PAL or NTSC?

I may have to sort out my desktop and reinstall Premiere and Workshop, but in the meantime I would be grateful for any help

BobA

Just tried a 10sec DV clip in Prem 6.5.
Export movie as MS DV render time =6sec.
as MS video 1. render time =11sec.
I also tried the same settings to o/p NTSC. Render times =20sec.

It`s very easy to overlook that Prem has slipped into NTSC mode. The pc is a P4 3.2G—2Gig DDR. M/board Asus P4P800-E.

Hope this helps, but I can`t produce the lengthy renders you have.
I can only suggest you check the properties of the avi`s, although I suspect you have done this.
I havn`t used Tempg for a long time, as I use WS2 or encode with Procoder Express.

Bob, when you export from 6.5 are you rendering out just an avi or mpeg file? If you have already converted the file to mpeg in Premiere, when you load it in to WS are you then selecting a template and rendering it again, so you are rendering it twice? This may be causing the pixelisation.

I use the Matrox mpeg encoder which converts the 6.5 timeline in to separate mpeg video and audio files. When loaded in to DVD WS in the Edit section I leave the Video as it is but in the audio I tick the convert to disc template box. When I've done the menus, and go to Finish and burn, in the Burn Project to Disc window I select Disc templates/Good quality Dolby Digital AC-3 audio) When I then burn to disc, the video file stays the same (not re-converted) but the audio is converted to Dolby with a smaller file size.

Hope this might help you.

Peter

Bob. I think I may have misread your post—smacked wrist!!

Rendered 10sec avi to DVD with prem.6.5 encoder. Either using MS DV avi, or MS Vid 1 avi takes 16sec. @ 6k cbr Audio 48k 16bit PCM.
Rendering the same NTSC file also takes 16sec.

I usually complete the project as an avi. Load it into WS2 and add menus leaving WS2 to create the DVD.
Using Procoder, I load the avi into that, and the resultant mpeg into WS2 ticking the box not to convert video, but converting audio to AC3.

John that is my usual method as well. Do you export your timeline from 6.5 as a "Microsoft DV AVI" or as a "Microsoft AVI".

If you mean Right clicking on the AVI and selecting properties then I have but it doesn't show if it is PAL or NTSC, or what kind of AVI it is.

Peter I am saving as AVI, but I think I may have made the offending file in NTSC which would account for the rendering times, I just don't know how to find out. If I knew that was the problem then I would be more confident in future (and careful).

I just had a clear out on my computer and that is the only thing I have on it at the moment. I will just have to start something else and double check all my settings.

BobA

Bob. I export the timeline as Microsoft DV avi.

After my last post, I discovered the only program I had that showed info. from a vob was Gspot. It gives the frame size and rate, and a whole lot more—and it`s free…

http://www.headbands.com/gspot/download.html

Thanks John, I have been fiddling around with everything so much that I had forgot my settings. I thought it was DV.

Job finished now and all cleared off computer. My camcorder develope a focussing fault which has been fixed since the holiday, so all the footage of anything beyond about 40ft was blurry as soon as any zoom was applied.

It was the most labour intensive edit I have ever done.

I had better make a note of my settings somewhere as my next project is scanning and archiving all family 35mm slides and by the time I have finished that I will have forgotten how to use Premiere again. Oh the joys of old age.

Watch out for threads about 35mm slides ;)

BobA

Glad to be of some help…I think the short term memory gets shorter as we get older. I wish I could plug in an extra gig or so myself….35mm slides??? The family have all gone digi…

So have we. The newest are the 80's. :)

BobA

I exported some detailed footage out of Premiere 6.5 as a Microsoft DV.avi and also as a Microsoft.avi. I pull these into the Canopus speed controller apart from other things. Interestingly the latter was a lot faster to do and the picture quality (even in SD) was noticeably better. Make of this what you will, but I avoid the Microsoft DV.avi now.

tom.

Tom.
I tried this myself with a clip of moving vehicles at a show. Using Procoder and WS2.
This is SD, but I really could not tell the difference even on a 37” LCD TV.
What is “Canopus Speed Controller please?”

I capture with ScLive. The recommended capture format is Type 2 DV for Premier. If you import the MS avi into Prem, it needs to render. So we are talking of o/p only to MS avi then convert to mpeg.
So capturing MS avi`s would add more render time….I havn`t tried it, but could be interesting….

I have tried online to find the difference between the DV and nonDV AVIs and it would seem that they are type 1 and type 2 Microsoft video files, but as to finding out which is best, I glazed over while reading and didn't find a conclusion

I exported an 8 sec timeline from Premiere 6.5 as a Microsoft DV AVI and it took about 4-5 secs to save. too short to be accurate. It also made the clip 32.750mb in size.

The same 8 secs in Microsoft AVI took 3mins to save and produced a clip of 25.951mb.

As the capture is called Microsoft DV AVI, I would imagine that would account for my figures on the speed ie no need for conversion. Doesn't accuont for the discepancy in size.

Could Tom's experience have something to do with Canopus?

BobA

John, the Canopus Speed controller (was a free download) enables you to load any .avi file and vary the speed of the clip in a pure sine wave curve. So you can go from normal speed to a still frame over the time duration of your choice, or go from normal to 20% speed (say) and back up again - lovely for the confetti throwing.

I think Bb's right - the SC integrates beautifully with the Raptor and Storm, but not with anything else. But I find it delightful program to have at my disposal, and won't buy a new system until I've seen demonstrated that it can do the same thing. I had Richard Payne scratching his HDV head over this at the Video Forum.

tom.

I think that I probably still have the old Canopus Speed Controller download somewhere, if anyone wants to try it. I downloaded it ages ago when Tom recommended it, but could never get it to work with my avis. I think it probably works with the Canopus flavour avi only.

Thanks for the explanation Tom. Sounds interesting but for Canopus users only…
I have Procoder vers.1, but vers 2 is on the site and they say it can be used as a stand alone, or with Edius. Vers. 3 is coming soon.
I thought it was no longer available!!!

Alan. Sounds as if you may be right!

The full Procoder is still available, but Procoder Express, the £50 version which had everything but the master mode and the batch process, is no more as a separate program. It is now avilable only as part of Edius, I believe.