DVD MF 3 Does it work for you?

John
Agree with some of your comments on MF3DC but if you have a quick project it is easier than my Video studio 8 or MSP7, provided it works. It seems to hang in disc creation not offering the NEXT button (greyed out) and the only solution is to go back and try again. The NTSC template I havn't found a problem, but I think on installation of the program it asks which format, and if you take the default NTSC it will always offer it first.The updates do seem to have helped a bit
Regards
tony Roberts

Thanks Tony.
Nothing greyed out as yet.
The only other Ulead products I had, were MSP 2.5 up to MSP6 in the days of the Pentium 233, and P3 600. Even they worked. This has just failed after 7min to make the TS folders for a 15min DVD.
I thought this was a quick project. Four files, no moving menus, .avi`s made in Prem.6.5
Selecting the country or TV format at start up makes no difference. I have re-imaged the drive between installs, moved the working folder, and deleted the many copies of mf3 folders installed everywhere, leaving the one it should use.

It`s not easy to make a DVD. Now thinking of a refund!!!

When you open a new DVD Project, hit the F6 key. There should be a pulldown menu for TV Sytem. Select PAL to see if that lets you use the PAL Templates.

The "jitters" might be related to incorrect Field Order. Is DMF encoding to mpeg, or are you doing the encoding outside of the program? what is your video source (i.e. how was it captured)? You mentioned .avi's made from Premiere -- are you outputting the .avi's using the proper field order?

When the program stops during an .avi import, is it for any .avi file? Or for .avi files that are larger than "x" bytes?

Regards,
George

John
I meant select NTSC at installation of program not at start up, i.e. uninstall and reinstall program. Actually it may be the right thing to do as MF3 does work and it suggests you have lost a few vital files. Suggest reinstall and add patches before running. Good Luck
Regards
Tony Roberts

Tony.
George.

A reply from Ulead Support suggested several folders to empty, and a re-install of MF3DC. This includes the two updates and a burning engine update. Selecting the country and not format at start up, seems to have cured the NTSC preset.

After installation Power DVD would not open. I have removed it, and trying the Ulead player. Not as responsive though.

Avi`s are recorded by ScLive. Premier .avi o/p is lower field.
It still won`t look at a file over 2Gig. Splitting the file works. I find the MF encoder better than either the DV500 or Premier 6.5. Encoding at 7000 VBR is fairly quick and looks good. Better than before the updates. I have not changed the field order, there is still jitter, but some TS files look better on the TV than the pc.

Avi import is only a little better. Causing MF3 to stop responding if you click on the file more than once. The first file hangs. After that import is ok. File size is irrelevant.

It may get better over time, I wouldn`t give it a glowing report.

John,

Are you using DV Type-1 or DV Type-2 files? Try using the "other" to see if that helps...

George

George.

Type 2 as the setting in the DV500. I will try and experiment with a few things.
VHS recorded off air and edited to a 15min program, has encoded in MF3 very well. Results are as good as the original.

John,

I suspect the DV avi import problems are because the DV500 replaces the normal Microsoft DV codec with it's own (hardware based) version. This has also caused problems with TMPGEnc in the past.

Unfortunately I don't know of a fix for this (with TMPGEnc the workaround was to frameserve to it from Premiere instead).

The jitter on horizontal movement does sound very much like field-order problems - I have the 'SE'(OEM) version of DMF3 and that doesn't have any field-order adjustment in the MPEG settings, and I'm pretty certain it assumes lower-field first for DV avi files but I don't know what it assumes for other avi files. What does it say about the files when you hit the info button in DMF3 ?

Tony

Disabling the DV500 and recording with Premier, still results in a Pinnacle coded type 2 file. Frame rate according to MF3 info is 24.999 fps. Open DML type 2.
If I then create a .avi from that file, it is a Microsoft .avi 25fps type 2. No open DML.

As you say. The Pinnacle codec is the probable cause. The MF3 update for the burning engine may well have improved the playback on a TV. Not the pc. May be something we have to live with.
There are no field order settings. Not even in the custom tab.

BIOS settings can make a difference, on the advanced tab you can change to either Auto/Turbo/Standard.
In Auto, a 1min 30sec clip takes 3min 53sec to make the TS folders.
In Turbo it takes 58sec. But the DVD playback jerks and is blocky.
In Standard, also 58sec for the TS, and 2min 7sec to burn. The DVD is ok.

Mmm, the lack of Open DML would account for the 2GB file limit when opening in DMF3.

It's weird that Ulead don't provide field-order settings in DMF2/3 when they do in VideoStudio....

Power DVD should run OK alongside the Ulead apps - I run PowerDVD 4 myself (with DMF2/DMF3/DVDWS1/VS8/Vegas Video 3 installed).

Tony

Tony.
Confusion is setting in. just to clarify things.

A .avi recorded with the DV500 enabled as normal, MF3 shows 25frms open DML.
If I then disable the DV500, and export the timeline as a .avi, MF3 shows 24.999frms but no DML. Still uses the Pinnacle codec type 2.

If and when I get time, replacing the DV500 with a 1394 card would force the ms or the TI codec into use. But it may be that the system drive is Fat32. I don`t record to it so I`m puzzled at the moment.

I installed the Ulead player. That has stopped power DVD. I may put it back. It`s nicer.

Maybe the hardware codec supports Open DML, but when the DV500 hardware is disabled there is a fallback Pinnacle software codec that doesn't support Open DML.

The 2GB limit isn't related to FAT32, it's an avi file format limitation when things don't support the Open DML extensions.

There isn't a 'TI' codec (just drivers, and those are effectively obsolete now anyway) - the MS DV codec is a standard part of DirectX.

I don't have the Ulead player installed either....

Tony

Just a thought if you want to check the field order in something that doesn't use the system codecs...

VirtualDub 1.6.1 - http://www.virtualdub.org - has it's own DV decoder, and adjustable preview field options (options -> preview field order) so you can work out what the field order of the exported DV files actually is (in VirtualDub, order A = upper field first, order B = lower field first)

VirtualDub-MPEG2 - http://fcchandler.home.comcast.net - can play MPEG-2 files (using an internal decoder), so this is handy for checking the field order of MPEG files.

Bitrate Viewer - http://www.tecoltd.com/bitratev.htm - is also a handy tool for checking the parameters of MPEG files (including VOBs)

Tony

Tony.
Installed Vitual Dub 1.5, and the Mpeg version. I can only load .avi files. Options give me Progressive. A or B. No information about the file. Selecting any one makes no difference viewed on the pc monitor.
After a re-boot it failed to load anything. Bitrate viewer does the same.

MF3 still loads files over 2Gig, but won`t create folders or burn. The system drive is now NTFS. I get the “runtime error” message. I have DX.9.0b. I looked this up in Webopedia. It says “An error that occurs during the execution of a program.” Another line sums it up. “Runtime errors indicate bugs in a program.” Or possibly running out of memory.
I Gig memory works for Premier. You can`t win em all.

It's odd that VirtualDub and Bitrate Viewer mis-behave, I've always found them very reliable.

I think I'd be tempted to wipe the slate clean by re-installing Windows (onto a re-formated drive so it doesn't try and preserve old settings) and just the software you need.

Tony

This was a restored drive image taken after the install of MF3. There could not be any left over files.
Virtual Dub also loads with just the outline and controls. The viewing window and surround is all greyed out until a file is loaded. Is this normal?

The Bitrate viewer. While it lasted, showed me that .avi`s recorded with ScLive read as normal.
Any .avi`s made from that .avi, showed as having extra bits of garbage that it thought were ok. Is this normal?

Yes.

Bitrate Viewer only works with MPEG files (Program or video elementary streams).

If you mean viewing DV avi files in VirtualDub 1.6.1, then I can't comment about the garbage problem since I don't have a DV500 - and also the DV support in 1.6.1 is still beta (earlier versions of VirtualDub don't have the built in DV decoder).

Tony

Tony.
It was Virtual Dub 1.5. It`s working but not displaying any information about fields.

An answer from Ulead suggests that the compression (DVSD) may not be fully compatible with the software. And to try an uncompressed .avi (or MS compatible). It is pointed out that file size is a problem, but that it is most compatible.

I answered to say sometime I would remove the DV500 and give it a try.

There must be a few using MF3. Obviously not with a DV500. I thought the 2Gig limit had gone forever!

In VirtualDub, the 'file information' window doesn't display field info (because avi files don't carry it - that's one of the problems...)

But what you can do is to use the adjustable preview field options (options -> preview field order) when playing a file to work it out - one field order should be jittery, the other smooth (assuming the file is interlaced of course).

For MPEG files loaded into Bitrate Viewer, the general information pane should have a 'Field Top First' entry - if this is 'yes' then it's a 'top field first' MPEG file.

If you want to try a lossless codec for the transfer (instead of uncompressed RGB) have a look at Huffyuv - http://neuron2.net/www.math.berkeley.edu/benrg/huffyuv.html (but I can't remember if this has 2Gig file limitations).

Tony

I've been reading this (and various other) threads with interest as you have been experiencing almost identical symptoms to me. I am using DVD Moviefactory 3 and have the same jerky/jittery pictures on the final mastered DVD. My AVIs are being exported from Premiere 6.1.

I was able to fix it for some circumstances earlier this year, so you may want to give this a go - import your AVI into Windows Movie Maker, then export it from there as a DV AVI and feed that into DVDMF. I have to admit that I was never sure why that fixed it, but it did.

However, I am now in the situation where that doesn't work either, because I need to create a DVD that is 90 minutes in duration, which (I think) means that I have to change the data rate to 4000kbps and uncheck the 'Do not convert compliant MPEG files' flag. Now all AVIs get the jitters, regardless of their type.

I have tried exporting with lower and upper field orders, experimented with type 1 and type 2 AVIs, I've even imported a file from a healthy DVD and tried to master that. For all of these, the flickering is still there. Thank god for DVD-RW or this would be costing me a fortune in trashed disks. I also checked the bios as per Johns Disdles suggestion but I don't have the same options as him.

So...first...does anyone have any other suggestions other than those already covered here?
Second...perhaps I should just trash the sofware and try something else. I've not read anything on here about people having this problem with any package other than the Ulead ones. Can anyone recommend a decent 'budget' package (I only cut a few DVDs a year, mostly for charity)?

Cheers,
Mike Blackadder

P4 2.4Ghz
512Ram
DV Raptor
Premiere 6.1
XP Home SP2

I suspect the problem is that Canopus use their own DV codec instead of the Microsoft one. The Canopus DV files have a different 'fourCC' code - 'cdvc' - so that they always use the Canopus codec (standard DV files are 'dvsd').

Opening the files in Movie Maker and then saving them as MS DV avi files means that DMF3 knows that these are DV, field based, lower field first so it can set up the MPEG encoder correctly.

I suspect DMF3 assumes that avi files using other codecs are frame based (and unlike the Ulead editing apps e.g. VS8 and MSP7) there is no user control to force it to do the right thing.

Try using the DV file converter utility on the files to convert them to MS DV files - http://www.canopus.us/US/Products/index/products_software_utilities_plug-ins.asp

For 90 minutes on a DVD, 6000 kbps (using MPEG or AC3 audio) or 5000 kbps (using LPCM audio) should be OK. There is a bitrate calculator here - http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=VideoHelp_Bitrate_calculator

Tony

Canopus do use their own dv codec.
There are problems with dvd movie factory 3 , in that there is not the same support as there is from workshop and canopus specific updates.

Mike.
Having spent the last few days battling with MF3, I have removed the DV500 replacing it with a fire-wire card. Re-imaged the drive with the bare essentials, + Prem.6.5 and recorded from the camera via ScLive, 5min and 10min files. The codec is DV type 2 and the 1394 driver is the Ti as installed by XP.

All files import into MF3 instantly. No hanging about. Out putting is the problem. Either TS folders or iso files cannot be made if one file is greater than 2Gig.
Splitting the 10min file is not the answer either. But. You can merge two 5min files.

The program is 50quids worth of rubbish. But I have to say the results on a RW-R DVD are very good. No jitter on panned or zoomed shots. There is a small amount of noise, but not as much as from either the DV500 or Premier`s Mpeg encoder.

Tony and Gary must be correct in that codecs other than Microsoft are to blame. So what are Ulead doing about it! Nothing I expect.

I do have a 15min program I want to get to DVD recorded from vhs via the DV500. So far, all attempts have been abandoned due to the jitters. Looks like I shall have to convert to something MF3 likes.

canopus have a dv avi file converter program free on their website , or if you can't find it i can supply it.

i must say i use mf3 successfully to do simple dvd's

4 x sky one episodes of battlestar galactica onto a single dvd , simple menu ,i.e. 4 x 45 minute mpegs as captured by panasonic e55 in lp mode, and editted on my pc to remove 'adverts'.

the discs have now travelled to a couple of european addresses and one british.

all work fine.

i think the problem is that mf3 is a simple program for simple jobs and as such it keeps things to simple/hidden from the user.
must admit it took me a while to find some of the settings etc , but , it does a better job than workshop on my vaio .... workshop crashes if i try to write a dvd but works fine if i first create the video_ts folders or an iso , so there may be a minor driver conflict.

if you want to put the finished timeline on a dv tape , send it to me , i'll use mf3 to make a dvd for you.

my working folder and drive with temp/swap files are all ntfs and seperate from the program/system drive.

Thanks Gary, for the offer. It`s not urgent I want to know if it can be done.

My working folder is on another drive. It`s nice to know that it works ok for you.

I will have a look at the Canopus File Converter. I have tried converting from Prem`s time line via the DV500 to a MS DV format. Could be type 1 as there is no mention of DML. Playback is still jittery on moving objects.

The best results have been from files recorded without the DV500.
I am having thoughts in this direction, but would miss the analogue in.

i think dv500 reverses fields from normal , that may be the problem

this may make interesting reading for all dv500 users

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFiles/Readme45.doc

Gary.
This is of cause, the DV500 read me file. Does this mean the DV500 o/p is not the same field wise as a 1394 card.

1 Exporting to file from Premier and reversing field order, then importing to MF3. The DVD plays on a set top. But the picture quivers.(field order wrong)

2 Export the original file from Prem to DV from the DV500. Then connect the DV cable to the P4P800 1394 port and record direct to MF3 as Mpeg 2.

Result!!! Power DVD plays the TS no problem. So I burn from MF3. No jitter but 5min into the DVD and blocks start to appear, followed by a freeze then it all stops.

Burning from the TS is better. Freeze at 9min lasting for a few seconds then it plays to the end.
I can`t download the file converter because I am not a Canopus user. (how would they know)
I will have to think seriously about DVD creation, and my set up.

Pinnacle advertises for the DV500DVD implies that`s what it does. It is in fact tied to Pinnacle`s own software, Impressions.
Page 42-43 of the manual tells of export to mp2 and using Impressions to prepare the DVD for burning in other software. If Impressions was easy to use, fine. But making menus in Photoshop and having to import audio, makes it a pain.

i'm sure my dv and mpeg are lower field first.

i create most of my dvd's from captured files from my storm2.
i must admit that anything i capture with rt2000 are converted to microsoft dv files , taken to my vaio or storm2 system and dvd's created from those files and on those systems rather than the rt2000's.

i think the problem is due to the fact that rt2000 and dv500 are a different era of technology and use kludges to create dvd's whereas newer systems and plain vanilla ieee1394 can use the newer programs without the same interoperability problems.

a fast p4 with ieee1394 can outperform any of my rt2000 systems for most of the stuff i do , rt2000 only comes into it's own with realtime analogue page curls etc , but since they still need renderred for dv out , they aren't much faster for dv work.

I've just done a few tests with DMF3 (the OEM 'SE' version I have), DMF2 and VS8(retail versions).

DMF3 imports and creates DVD folders OK from a 13 minute, 3Gig DV type-2 OpenDML file (and I know I haven't got any other DV codecs in the system so it has to be using the MS codec).

BUT the resultant DVD has the two video fields swapped vertically (the MPEG info shows the VOB file correctly as lower field first, so it's not a field order flagging problem as such). The effect of this terrible jitter and other artifacts.

If I use the same DV file in DMF2 (and VideoStudio 8) the output is OK, so it looks like there is a bug in DMF3....

Gary - can you try encoding from a DV avi file in DMF3 to check this too ? (just in case there's something funny about my OEM version of DMF3)

Tony

I've just managed to get my setup working.
Whilst trying the tried and trusted "reinstall the product and see if that makes a difference" trick, I noticed an expired evaluation of Ulead VideoStudio. I uninstalled this too, reinstalled MF3, applied all the latest patches from the Ulead site (theres a new one on there that has only been on for a couple of weeks), and voila, it all works - no jitters at all.

Of course, I'm not sure which bit of that process fixed it...

The only restriction I now have is that I still have to convert my Canopus AVIs to Microsoft ones, and (because the Canopus ftp site was down at when I tried it) I am still doing this using Windows MovieMaker. This seems to create good OpenDML files and is ok with files > 2Gb too.

I hope something in there helps you out John. Its frustrating as hell when it doesn't work.

Mike B

am doing a 1 min 30 secs version here at home.
will post update once folders are created

files play back fine on ulead dvd player.
footage is as follows , from avicodec.

Video : 312 MB, 29091 Kbps, 25.0 fps, 720*576 (4:3), dvsd = Sony Digital Video, Supported

certainly no reversal of frame order.

if you want the canopus file converter

www.avtech.demon.co.uk/download/canopus.exe

Gary,

Thanks for trying it out - looks like it's just my OEM version of DMF3 that has a bug - doesn't really bother me as I always encode in something else anyway.

Cheers,

Tony

(Just noticed that the most recent DMF3 patch fixes a 'flickering problem of converted Mpeg video when the source was DV-AVI Type-2 format with trimming or cut before conversion' which sounds like a similar problem - unfortunately the patch won't install on my OEM version...)

Mike.
It is still frustrating. Tried the trick with Movie Maker, still flickers. DV.avi seen as a Microsoft video in explorer.

Tony.
The patches for MF3 are dmf3 patch dl e.exe
dmf3 patch2 dl e.exe
and a burning eng update. These were specified by Ulead tech support.

Trying without the DV500. So far it`s no different. DV captured by ScLive is just the same.
Editing in prem.6.5 is disappointing. A TV connected via the cam is good for preview, but the source and prog. monitors are slow to update.

I hope the Lacie USB Burner is ok. But as the playback on the PC is rubbish I think not.

With the DV500 or not! The results with MF3 are the same. Bad! One attempt looked good and played for about 2min. I had checked the DVD-VR box. Can`t find any help on that.

DVD Lab trial works well, but not having playback with sound can be difficult, although others like it. But at that price perhaps I should get it.

I have DVD WS2 trial. The results are very good with no jitter even on the pc monitor. But it`s better if I burn from the TS folder.
I have three different –RW DVD`s. An AQ from maplin. It writes and plays well but the burner and XP can`t read it.
A Mr DVD –RW also from Maplin. Reads writes and plays well.
A Medianca from another shop. Reads and writes, but not so good at playing. Decent RW DVD`s seem to be rare in these parts.

Also looking at pc BIOS settings. The P4P800 default some how loses the CD rom Dos drivers.

Thanks Gary, just got the message.

After several weeks trying various DVD burning software, I can at last make a decent DVD.

The DV500 vers.4.5 drivers: Projects exported from Premier as .avi`s, will import directly to DVD-Lab and Ulead DVD Workshop 2. There may be others, mainly Pinnacle I would expect.
Import into MovieFactory 3 is slow, and the DVD flickers.

But. Export the project from Premier`s time line as a standard 48k Microsoft DV .avi, and it imports with delay to Ulead MovieFactory 3, but the DVD plays without flicker.

The DV500 vers.4.02 drivers: Projects exported from the timeline as .avi`s, will import into almost anything. But into MovieFactory with the same delay, but the result is a flicker free DVD.

MovieFactory sees all these .avi`s as Pinnacle type 2.
Am I really the only one to discover this?

Congratulations on getting that sorted, John.

How many disks did you trash on the way? :mad:

Only one. That was free with the burner, I test the project with a –RW first and as you see. That`s not foolproof.