DVD-R packs in after 40 plays

Maybe a silly question but have you tried it on your E30 ?.

We've produced about 1000 DVD-Rs now over a period of 25 months - exclusively on Apple (originally) and Verbatim (for the majority) disks.
We do get some back (although a very small number)where the disc has simply stopped playing or plays with errors, after having spent some considerable time playing perfectly. The discs are usually found to be without marks or scratches of any kind and suggests - as has been touched on in other threads and on other forums - that there may be some ageing process in the dye causing problems.
The consequences of this could obviously be far reaching.

I'll just add brief replies to the two comments above:-

John - I no longer have the E30, but I am getting another DVD recorder in the very near future and I will try the disk on there.

Gerry - interesting comments. Just off the top of your head would you say these "problem" disks are less than (a) 10% (b) 5% (c) 1%.

I can't help feeling that researchers somewhere must have developed methods for accelerated ageing of DVDs to test their longevity. It just seems the common sense thing to do when developing something like this.

Is such information in the public domain, I wonder?

Regards NL

At the moment I reckon we're looking at about 2% or less - this is where everything has been OK, the player hasn't changed but the disk suddenly has problems.

This figure may well not be representative though because as these are all 100% wedding videos then the nature of the thing is that they are played loads when the couple first get them and then less so over time, perhaps only occasionally being played after a year or two, so there could be lots more that at the moment we don't know about.

Re resarch :- sometimes the lack of research companies, even major ones, put into a product before it goes into the marketplace staggers me. We have had the JVC equivalent of the Sony DSR11 here for months on test for JVC. The product works fine but fails in one particular area - something JVC hadn't noticed until we pointed it out. JVC had licensed this particular code from Sony and instigated it and figured it would work. So they built the product and put it on sale worldwide then gave us one to test and then found it didn't work!!.....

Hi all,

I've just started business transferring analogue video footage to DVD and this is rather a worrying development, considering during research for the business many other established companies major selling point for transfer to DVD was the 100 year lifespan of the disc.
Could it be that a VHS copy of the footage could oulast a DVD copy!!
What would your stratagies be if the amount of returned discs started to grow.
All advice greatly welcomed!!

Thanks in advance

Graham

I too would really like to get the bottom of this one. Many disks I make play for 8 hours a day seven days a week on a loop and I have had a few come back to me in a similar way as you describe. The first ones I did were for a temporary exhibition at the V&A which ran for about 5 months - no problem. The next one was again a temporary exhibition in Belgium where they were using Phillips players and several of them came back. I have recently been required to provide DVD's for a couple of permanent exhibitions and I am worried this will become something of a problem in the future. Three disks have already given up the ghost at an exhibition in Paris and they are barely six months old. Some of the hardware contractors who are maintaining the show claim that they have some exhibitions which have been working flawlessly for five years. My big worry is that these disks are authored very differently using much higher-end gear than an AO3. I believe there is a big difference in reflectivity between commercial disks and the ones we use and I think perhaps this makes them less likely to become faulty. All the current machines I'm using are the Pioneer 7300's. If anyone has any advice/ideas about this I would love to hear about it. My current damage limitation plan is to emphasis the crappy picture quality of DVD compared with a mpeg2 with a more generous bitrate than DVD will allow.

In the meantime I would advice anyone against using DVD as an archive solution for Data/media.

quote:Originally posted by elbow:
My current damage limitation plan is to emphasis the crappy picture quality of DVD compared with a mpeg2 with a more generous bitrate than DVD will allow.

Sorry, I don't follow what you mean?

Thanks

Graham

I have had discs running at exhibitions without trouble but I went the more expensive route and use 3.95 authoring discs (£6-50 a time) made on a Pioneer S201. The report mentioned in another string gave this combination as the one with the widest compatibility. So far no problems on Verbatim discs.

People,

This really is potentially VERY serious!

I need as much input here as possible so I can attempt to force some answers out of the companies that make burners and discs.

So, please, can we have all your comments about known problems with DIY DVD discs that have gone bad.

Bob C

So does this tie in with the Philips problem with dvd+r failing after a given time?

Wow, this cold turn into a real "hot potato" couldnt it?
We have (like mosts others ) had definite compatiblity problems with DVDS (all -R), burnt on A Panasonic DVD burner, or on a Panasonic E20. As is common, they play on some machines and not on others. However, we have yet to have any returned so far because they have worn out.

DVDS are played on loops at exhibitions etc, and seem to be bearing up...but it is early days and I will add to this as our experiences grow.
Chris

I've done a few loop dvd's for show home's and had no problem with the ones produced with the Pioneer S201 but after time the AO3 produced ones had problems.
Could it be that the general media disk's are made to a lower standard,as they are a "consumer product".Maybe they cant stand the constant heat??

PS As i understand it most things that are played on a loop on a long term basis tend to be Mpeg played on computer though multi channel Mpeg cards (like the Dome)

Dominic

[This message has been edited by Dominic I (edited 23 May 2003).]

Ignoring totally the question of good quality and bad quality discs - though there DEFINITELY are good and bad quality discs - I've just received a VERY disturbing email, from someone whose opinion I've learned to trust, suggesting that the dyes used even in good quality discs can be ruined by:

* No more than two days exposure to sunlight!

* Heat - not least the heat of the laser that's used to play DVDs!

If either of the above is true, then DIY DVD in its present form would seem to me to be untenable - with the exception of DVD-RAM, which uses a quite different magneto-optical disc.

I think I need to call in a professional sleuth, and that's just what I intend to do.

Bob C

What also needs to be said is that the "official" line on the subject of DVD disc life seems to be that they are long-lasting.

For example,
http://www.dvdforum.org/tech-faq.htm

Q. Will DVD discs wear out, like VHS movies?

A. No. The picture quality of the DVD disc is consistent from the first
play to the thousandth play. Plus, DVD discs will not deteriorate over
time, are unaffected by magnetic fields (which can literally erase a VHS
cassette) and do not require rewinding after viewing.

Or, this, from the features/benefits list for DVD-R, on Ritek's site: "Long-term data archiving and storage life time"
(ritek.com.tw/ritek_e/product/storage/product/dvd-r.html)

Hopefully, this is correct.

Bob C

I created 40 DVD-R's on my Panasonic DMR-E20 between February and June last year. These where all recorded on Apple DVD-R media. I recently decided to back these up and found that 8 of them no longer play properly - stuttering and locking up in places. These are all discs using the original dye/lead-in.

quote:Originally posted by bcrabtree:
What also needs to be said is that the "official" line on the subject of DVD disc life seems to be that they are long-lasting.

For example,
http://www.dvdforum.org/tech-faq.htm

Q. Will DVD discs wear out, like VHS movies?

A. No. The picture quality of the DVD disc is consistent from the first
play to the thousandth play. Plus, DVD discs will not deteriorate over
time, are unaffected by magnetic fields (which can literally erase a VHS
cassette) and do not require rewinding after viewing.
Snip....
Bob C

Bob does this statement refer to 'home-made' DVDs or DVDs commercially pressed from masters? It doesn't make this clear and I suspect there are differences in life expectation between the two.

Regards NL

discs i made and handed over 8 weeks ago are still going strong.

not a long time ago i know
BUT
each dvd is approx 1 hour long
there are 16 working hours per day where they are playing
there are 6 1/2 working days per week

so 16 x 6 1/2 = 104 hours per week
x 8 weeks = 832 hours.

no reports of a failure yet ( and they don't exactly look after them , after all they are only 'publicity material' )

never mind .... might make some more money when they need more copies due to the scratches they are putting on them.

next job is hopefully 50 dvd's for same purpose , different company.

[This message has been edited by sepulcre (edited 23 May 2003).]

Hmmmm!!

An interesting thread.

Just done a quick search and it seems that most of the manufacturers refer to "archival life of 100 years". Now suggests to me that the produced DVD is not expected to be used at all once burned.

So, have the manufacturers done age usage tests and are the results in the public domain.

The dye layer will be affected by sunlight (that much has been declared?) the issue of heat cycling during repeated playing is potentially more sigificant. This puts me in mind of what is said by the likes of Intel or AMD about overclocking especially by upping the voltages on the CPU - I read somewhere of something that I think was refered to as crystalline creep. Where the molecular structure of the transistors in the CPU changes.

If that can happen to silicon I do not doubt that there could be chemical changes in such a humble substance as an AZO dye.

Can the august weight of Bob and CV get the various makers to put their corporate heads above the parapet and make some difinitive statement on the matter of archival life versus playable life.

Nigel,

The first one may or may not be deliberately unspecific, I simply don't know.

If you look at the FAQ itself this is NOT made clear - so it might be referring to pressed DVDs or recordable DVDs. Since this is NOT clear, it is perfectly possible that everyone who goes to the site will assume it means DVD-R and DVD-RW (even if it is actually only referring to pressed DVDs), and thus be misled.

As for the second one, that's referring to DVD-R, not pressed DVDs.

Bob C

quote:exception of DVD-RAM, which uses a quite different magneto-optical disc.

Just to say that DVD-RAM is phase-change and works the same as DVD-RW/+RW. All the re-writeable’s for DVD are phase change and not dye based.

When we are talking about longevity, DVD-R and +R are dye based, RW/RAM are phase-change (not dye based). Any affect on DVD-R/+R that is affecting its life span doesn't apply to RW/RAM that will react differently to the same conditions.

I suspect that while dye based media has a longer rated life span than RAM/RW, this is likely based on archival conditions that write-once discs were expected to be used for, i.e. recorded, then archived in "pleasant" conditions and only being played a few times over the next 100 years.

RW/RAM media is often rated less (around 30 years) but as it isn't an archiving media, the accelerated ageing tests are likely geared towards gauging its lifespan during a period of regular use and non-archival environments.

Those having problems with DVD-R/+R, certainly in an location where they are repeatedly played, may want to try using DVD-RW/+RW (assuming they are compatible). While dye is affected by UV/visible light and warmth as a by product of how it records, phase change material are pretty much not "phased" by similar conditions, as they work by heat (several hundred degrees C) to record, i.e. the melting point of the phase change material.

Regards

Philip

[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 24 May 2003).]

I'm wondering if the manufacturing processes are taking into account microbiology?

The use of dyes and the link with heat (sunlight or laser) suggest to me that bacteria could be a culprit here. It's definitely a link to deterioration.

Hi Bob,

Good to see that this issue is being tackled now. We've had a couple of DVD-R disk "go off" recently. They were burnt with a Pioneer A03 onto unbranded media, so I can't really say which manufacturer's process was used I'm afraid. Both disks were burnt about a year ago and could only be read by the original A03 that burnt them - no other DVD player or PC DVD drive would recognise them. This was certainly not the case when they were "new". The disks were kept in DVD wallets, in the dark, at room temperature, no scratches.

Needless to say, there's no way I'd be saving any important data to DVD right now. I wouldn't be happy burning my home movies to DVD either, not knowing if I'll be able to play them again in 1, 2, 5 or 10 years time.

I would definitely like to hear what the DVD Forum have to say about this. I don't buy their "will not deteriorate over time" line. Everything will deterioriate over time. Evidence so far suggests that the disks are deteriorating - and quickly. I (and it looks like many others) want to know how long they take to deteriorate. 100 years I could live with. 1 year is not acceptable.

The DVD Forum verification tests could be relevant to this, see:
www.dvdfllc.co.jp/verific.htm

The tests suggest that in order for any DVD related product to display the "DVD" logo, it must pass the verification tests laid out by the DVD Forum. For example, this suggests that any blank DVD media, burnt on a DVD writer drive should play on a DVD player - if they all show the DVD logo. This is far from our experience at the moment however. It might be worth asking the DVD Forum (as I can't find the answer on their site) what the expected lifetime for DVD-logo-approved media really is. I would have thought that this would be part of, and should be part of, the media specification.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

Hi

quote:The tests suggest that in order for any DVD related product to display the "DVD" logo, it must pass the verification tests laid out by the DVD Forum. For example, this suggests that any blank DVD media, burnt on a DVD writer drive should play on a DVD player - if they all show the DVD logo. This is far from our experience at the moment however.

This is true, but there isn't just one DVD Logo remember. A DVD Video logo only confirms the player is passed to play pressed commercial DVD Videos. Unless the player has a DVD-R Logo, or specifies DVD-R playback is supported in the specifications then it has only been tested and approved for DVD Video (commerically made discs) by the DVD Verification labs.

quote:I would definitely like to hear what the DVD Forum have to say about this. I don't buy their "will not deteriorate over time" line. Everything will deterioriate over time. Evidence so far suggests that the disks are deteriorating - and quickly.

What evidence? At the moment we have a few people who have reported problems, and in your case this was with unbranded media that, for the very reason it is unbranded, would not have been approved or tested by the DVD Verification labs, and did not carry any logo. If anything it tells us what most of us already realise, use good quality media that the manufacturer isn't scared to put their name to.

I heard similar stories about CD-R several years ago suggesting discs may only last 1 or 2 years, yet all mine are still working some 5 or 6 years on, of course time will tell and that is the problem. No amount of accelerated ageing or manufacturers claims of storage life can be believed or relied upon until said time has elapsed and we can see for ourselves. We have no option but to let the horse go and then shut the stable door.

Regards

Philip

[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 26 May 2003).]

Hi Graham - Sorry not to have responded sooner I only just read your comment. BTW I'm delighted to see its not just me who is considering this a serious problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by elbow:
My current damage limitation plan is to emphasis the crappy picture quality of DVD compared with a mpeg2 with a more generous bitrate than DVD will allow.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I don't follow what you mean?

Thanks

Graham

If you encode an mpeg2 stream at 1,400 mbits (Not possible to author to DVD)and then encode the same material to a stream of 800 mbits (suitable for authoring to DVD) and compare the two streams there is a significant difference in the quality of the pictures. Even if you use the worst/cheapest encoder for the high bitrate and a classy encoder like pro-coder or cinemacraft for the 800 mbit stream the higher bitrate encode will look better, much better. I did some tests using the same 30 second avi file of tricky-to-encode images with a variety of encoders and then transcoded the streams back to avi so that I could do a much more comprehensive frame by frame analysis of the results. It all takes a big knock from a DV avi in terms of the introduction of compression artefacts but the biggest single factor in reducing this is bitrate, this is why the bitrate limitation of DVD makes it crappy picture quality. My encoder is limited to 1500 mbits but some will go up as high as 2500 mbits or even 4000 mbits which is will produce a virtualy lossless file in comparison to the original, DV or even digi-beta, however I have only seen this in demonstrations with big projectors and have not had the chance to do frame by frame testing.

Some people say "yes but I've got Star Wars etc on DVD yadda yadda yadda and it looks fantastic - I've checked it with a bitrate viewer and some of the rates are really low, DVD is the dogs ....ks!" The time spent encoding this film however will have been enourmous and cost far more money than many of my entire productions with multiple passes and stitching together the mpeg from a variety of different algorythms and gop structures. For me and many others, this is just not an option, however, a video server with a good mpeg2 decoder card compared to the cost of a couple of Pioneer 7300 DVD players.... - there is not really much in it price wise. So why not go down the server root and get better picure quality and with hard drives dropping so much in price you could run them on a redundant ide raid and have a pretty damn fireprood set-up. Hope that explains my train of thought a bit clearer.

I had a demo DVD made 2 years ago which runs at shows for 8 hours a day and has probably done about 30 days.

It has never missed a heartbeat.

None of my customers have complained about discs not working and I have been sending them out for over 2 years.

I hope this is just a bit of worry over nothing because the financial implications to businesses could be huge.

SIFI

Elbow, I understand the logic of your case, but I'm not sure about the number of zeroes in front of "mbits" in your argument.

Bob, nice thread - we all need the answer, but it will not be easy.

As many have already pointed out there are many variables and many contributing factors.
1) Many people will be using a drive by one manf and DVDs by another - so which INDEPENDANT organisation would be prepared to put up the money to do the research?
2)Just look at the number of variables for storage and use alone, eg. play once and put back in controlled conditions vs play continuously in a player that has an internal ambient temperature way above room.

We are all delighted when another burner comes out even cheaper and faster than before, when another set of DVDs is offered for sub£1. We just have to bear in mind that at this price it may not be the best technology around.

My use of DVD is minute compared with some of the contributors here and so far I have only failed to read back the comtents of one DVD-RW (and i had it backed up on tape anyway), but I would support everyone else in suggesting that tape is the only real archive we have at the moment and even that is not fully understood either as past threads have shown.

Good luck on your campaign - any info will be gratefully received by us all.

Cheers, JOVE

Hi Philip,

quote:This is true, but there isn't just one DVD Logo remember.

Well, you learn a new thing every day, and it's only 9:30 in the morning I hadn't spotted that the DVD-R logo had a tiny "R" printed under it (or in it, on some disks).

quote:What evidence? At the moment we have a few people who have reported problems, and in your case this was with unbranded media that, for the very reason it is unbranded, would not have been approved or tested by the DVD Verification labs, and did not carry any logo.

I realised that by saying that I was using unbranded media left me open to that criticism. It doesn't change the fact that it does appear to decayed however. How much better is a branded media? 10x better? This only has a life of less than 10 years. All media has a finite lifetime, no matter what the DVD Forum say.

I used to believe in the branded/unbranded quality argument until I bought a batch of duff TDK CD-R disk that had uneven coverage of dye on their surfaces and simply didn't store data. It appears that DVD-R disks can degrade with time; I've experienced this with an unbranded disk and Paul D's original post talks about a Datasafe disk (a particularly ironic brand name there!). I'd simply like to know what is a realistic expected lifetime for DVD-R disks.

Some of my very early CD-R disks also degraded and they were all branded media. In this case it seemed that the HP writers I was using at the time may have been part of the issue, as I replaced these with Yamaha and then Plextor writers and have not had problems since. Maybe the media have improved. Maybe both.

quote:We have no option but to let the horse go and then shut the stable door.

I remember very early on with CD-R that not all CD players would play the disks; I suspect we're at that sort of position with DVD-R at the moment. As I don't HAVE to store my data on DVD-R at the moment, I'm not going to take the risk.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

If they dont mind, i think it would be very usefull if the people who have had no problems with there Disc's say what writer and media they use.Is there a differance between how long an Authoring disc Vs General purpous disk or Between +R and -R. It seems as though RW is less likely to fail, but there are fewer decks that will play them.

Dominic

This, I feel is a major issue, one I suspect that could result in considerable litigation in the future. I posted the question some time ago- but no answers were forthcoming-www.dvdoctor.net/cgi-bin/ubb/Forum10/HTML/009150.html
Litigation- because If a cine film degenerates/breaks material is still recoverable, Video can be spliced etc but a non functioning disc is totally useless. If treasured memories are on a single disc, unless that disc has a sell by date people are going to be upset if they do not work.-2 copies of everything, tested every month and backed up when one copy fails to play???
regards
Tony Roberts

Paul,

Can you please send me the DVD, so I can get some tests done?

Bob C

quote:Originally posted by Paul D:
I've got a (Datasafe) DVD-R recorded on a Panasonic E30 which I have been using as a master for making VHS copies.

After about 4 months and some 40 plays it has packed in. About 15 minutes into a 2 hour programme it quits and begins again at the start.

I've checked out the Sony DVD player - no problems there, and the disk still looks pristine - no dirt or scratches (as it should be it's been handled carefully). The disk is a purple dye one from Lynx - a source with a very good reputation.

This has worrying implications for any DVD copies I may want to produce in the future. Anyone got any comments/answers for this problem?

Paul,

Can you please send me the DVD, so I can get some tests done?

Bob C

quote:Originally posted by Paul D:
I've got a (Datasafe) DVD-R recorded on a Panasonic E30 which I have been using as a master for making VHS copies.

After about 4 months and some 40 plays it has packed in. About 15 minutes into a 2 hour programme it quits and begins again at the start.

I've checked out the Sony DVD player - no problems there, and the disk still looks pristine - no dirt or scratches (as it should be it's been handled carefully). The disk is a purple dye one from Lynx - a source with a very good reputation.

This has worrying implications for any DVD copies I may want to produce in the future. Anyone got any comments/answers for this problem?

Having just bought a Pioneer DVD-R/-RW for transfering my old videos onto, this possible problem is of great concern and as you say could escalate into something really big and nasty! Although it is of no concern to me I presume this will also effect those who are using the Hitachi/Panasonic direct to DVD camcorders. Has there been any feedback from these users? At least users of DV tape have something to go back to!

Paul D
Can you contact me by email as I have tried to send an email to your profile address and its just bounced.
Thanks
Paul

Er, well, um...

...Pardon?

Bob C

quote:Originally posted by PaulD:
Paul D
Can you contact me by email as I have tried to send an email to your profile address and its just bounced.
Thanks
Paul

Hi Bob
The answer lies in the space - this topic was started by Paul D whereas I (inadvertantly) registered on these forums somewhat later as PaulD.
I tried to forward the email to Paul D but it bounced....
Confusing I know for mere mortals but totally straightforward for computers. There you go...
Regards

Have you used a printed adhesive CD label on the disk? I am informed that sticking a label to the surface can affect the reflectivity of the disk, and this deteriorates over time.
Please let me know - I label my disks with a CD marker pen and I have had no problems since I stopped using labels
can you e-mail me frankie@frankie.homechoice.co.uk

Sorry for the slow reply, but I've been away briefly.

No labels have been applied to this DVD so that isn't the problem.

Although this disk now misbehaves on my Sony player, I played it earlier today on a Toshiba machine and it played OK! However the Sony machine is busily playing various other DIY DVDs without missing a beat, so I tend to think it is a disk problem rather than a machine one (remember this disk has played fine for about 40 occasions before it began to act up).

I will forward the disk to Bob C and let him examine it.

Hi frankie,

In my case I had added labels to the disks. If I remember this weekend I'll try some of the other disks that I burnt at around the same time to see if these are OK; not all had labels added.

I'd like to send the disks to Bob but I threw them out once I'd copied the data off them by using the original A03 that wrote them. If I find any more duff ones I'll hang on to them though.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

This whole area should prove to be a very interesting topic that should be debated and investigated.

A couple of things to keep in mind. It is usually not widely understood that the DVD-r DVD+r DVD-rw DVD+rw Standard ONLY APPLIES TO THE MEDIA. It is easy to think that it applies to the whole process of reading writing and the media standard.

There are three dramatic differences between Standard Pressed DVD's. the -r/+r and the -rw+rw situations.

Pressed commercial DVD's are pitted, then coated. These, again in my experience, are very sensitive to scratches fingerprints etc. I have found that I can "fix" commercial dvd's that are skipping etc by applying a spray on wax (in the US a product called Pledge) It SEEMS, again not scientific, that the scratches smudges etc interfere with how the laser is able to read the pits.

the +r/-r are all based on a dye that is "burned" to change color. There appears to be a number of options as to how this is actually done, now the laser tracks the Groove. It certainly is POSSIBLE that the dye could start to deteriorate since it is an organic product, and there are some warnings of not to expose it to heat, light etc. BUT and again this is MY SPECULATION, this type of error would show up as blocking, and similar to how a clogged head on a DV deck looks. The problems that people have talked about here is skipping. Here I believe that something occurs that the tracking in the groove is disturbed. This COULD be some sort of clogging under the coating (reflective clogging so to speak, or some sort of deterioration of the edge of the track) that causes the laser to jump the track (like an old record). It also Appears to me that there are lots of possiblites here including the disk starting to delaminate, the undercoating starting to oxidize (like early cd's that had poor coating).

The other issue is more controversial. Basically I am speculating on this, but HOW the DVD is written is under the control fo the DVD writer. It is possible that there is some sort of glitch that causes the "color change in the track" to be slightly out of spec, and that over time there is some slight variation.

The physics of the spinning disk at high speed and the head on the reading COULD again in my opinion cause some deformation on the edge of the groove. I have noticed that some players really heat up the DVD quite a bit.

The other point is that I still think that there is more on the Reading sided of DVD's than is totally understood. If you recall on the Philips unit IF you had a dvd that was not being read properly, you could change the code written on the DVD so that the Player thinks it is a DVD-ROM. I think that this area bears more investigation. How is the reader handling a DVD-r/+r VS a DVD-rom during the read process.

Lastly is that situation that the +rw-RW is a Phase Change due to temperature changes. Here I think the light and dark is probably more stable, BUT again if for some reason during play the laser could heat up the groove under the coating such that it deforms slightly again my Speculation is that this could be a potential problem.

I think what is needed is to collect medai that has failed and have it analyzed.

John

“I think what is needed is to collect media that has failed and have it analyzed.”

Excellent idea! but you would need to know which manufacturing plant the particular company used. (they vary in their standards) Then you would need to compare with the individual dvd player(s) the faults show up on.
You could analyse and see if it was a manufacturing fault, delamination or deterioration for example, or a conditions of use fault, temperatures or type of laser, even the programme used to burn.

To collect this data would not be easy nigh on impossible I suspect. The pro’s have obviously got it cracked but their not telling.

Litigation? I dunno. Don’t think for a minute the manufacturers are scot free on this. They should have to prove that that they have taken all precautions to stop any kind of product fault or the buck stops with THEM not YOU. Even more so if you prove your responsibility to the client by backing up on another type of media, s.vhs for example.

Sure all the specifics re the source etc are important, but at this point we do not have a clue to the nature of the failure. Examination of the media should be able to shed some light on the specific failure, is it a dye problem, an lamination problem oxidation, scratch etc etc. Obviously if the person with the problem DVD had more information re where it was bought, it might help in the investigation.

There is a company in Monmouth that makes a test system for DVD and CD quality control.

Just because an investigation might not provide all the answers should not automatically rule out following up. This is going to take some detective work.

I remember way way back in the early days bringing up the issue of clogged heads when DV brand tapes were switched. There were all sorts of comments that there was only one or two factories that made all the tapes, that it was impossible etc etc. It took quite a while before it was discovered that there in fact was a problem with bonding.

At this stage we are in detective mode, not yet to scientific mode.

If you were to talk to a manufacturer you will almost certainly get "it bet it is scratched, and when you look carefully at it you will see that is the case" just like, I bet you will find that it is dirt that is clogging the head" Remember in the early days BBC was starting to claim that Heads only lasted 50 hours and everyone was in a panic.

There are all sorts of issues re are manufacturers producing multiple levels of quality, what defines the quality, and what are the implications. Not the least of which is "can you tell".

There are comments to the effect that lower "quality" might meet Data standards but not video, does DVD-rom mode have any effect etc.

SO I still say, lets get some DVD's and get some investigation as to physically what the DVD seems to show.

John

When you have a dvd that suddenly stops playing is the data corrupt or is it possible to transfer it to a new dvd.

Ray Maher.

Hi Ray,

quote:Originally posted by Ray Maher:
When you have a dvd that suddenly stops playing is the data corrupt or is it possible to transfer it to a new dvd.

The data itself isn't corrupt as such, but the reader is having problems reading it from the disk. I find that duff disks play best in the writer that was used to create them. If this can't read the disks either, you may be struggling to recover the data.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

Hi,

Duff disk update.

I've found another 3 duff disks that no longer play, that used to play fine when they were written. All 3 are BulkPaq (bulkpaq.co.uk) branded disks, complete with "DVD-R" logo. No labels were used, no scratches on the disks, kept in the dark in a DVD wallet at room temperature. The disks were written in December 2002 using a Pioneer A03 writer.

I have tried playing the disks on a Sony DVD player, Sony laptop and my main PC - none of these devices recognise the disks. The original A03 that was used to write them does however read the disks OK. I have also tried them on a newly built PC and this can read the disks as well, so I am able to recover the data.

I'm now in the process of copying the disks onto new DVD-R disks in the hope that these will last longer.

Worryingly, I have 2 other BulkPaq disks that were written around the same time and still play OK. I suspect that their time is limited however, so I'll be looking to copy these while I still can.

So, when I've done all this, who wants the disks to test? Bob? DVDoctor? I'll happily dontate a couple of these disks for testing if a suitable test is being organised (I'll hang on to one disk myself in case I need to test it again at some point).

I await instructions...

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

Hi

quote:BulkPaq (bulkpaq.co.uk) branded disks, complete with "DVD-R" logo.

Mmm just like you can by Levi jeans, has the label and everything, but they aren't.

Bulkpaq cause a lot of problems, a lot have forged ID's on them to get higher recording speeds, which is definitely not approved by the DVD Forum.

Can you check the Manufacturer code on the disc and tell us what it says?

Until we get a list of similar issues from 1st tier manufacturers, e.g. Pioneer, TDK etc then problems on Bulkpaq and Unbranded discs should just be put down to cheap, poor quality media. The questions of longevity on such media has been questioned by many people, but for most they do not care as they are not keep for long and are soon sold down the pub or in the school playground

Regards

Philip

Hi Philip,

quote:Originally posted by PhilipL:
Mmm just like you can by Levi jeans, has the label and everything, but they aren't.

Bulkpaq cause a lot of problems, a lot have forged ID's on them to get higher recording speeds, which is definitely not approved by the DVD Forum.

The disks were written at 1x.

quote:Originally posted by PhilipL:
Can you check the Manufacturer code on the disc and tell us what it says?

In the centre of the disk it says:

DVDRG-AEW, P5025006300102

quote:Until we get a list of similar issues from 1st tier manufacturers, e.g. Pioneer, TDK etc then problems on Bulkpaq and Unbranded discs should just be put down to cheap, poor quality media.

I tried a few branded media from Memorex and Mitsui early on, but I found that their levels of compatibility on different DVD drives was pretty poor. I wish I could believe that big brand media would solve the problems, but my past experience with TDK CD-Rs suggests that their quality control wasn't up to much either (see an earlier post).

I'd be interested if you can shed any light on the origins of these disks.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

[This message has been edited by AndyDean (edited 02 June 2003).]

Interesting and worrying debate here...

But I've been holding out of buying a DVD writer for some 18 months now, as I'm not keen on the fact that disks made are never 100% guaranteed to run on "all" DVD players!!!
A problem we never had with tapes (i know DVD's have more advantages elsewhere etc...), but can you imagine in the early days, giving a friend a copy of your latest creation on tape and saying "oh by the way, it may or may not work on your VHS player!!!!!".

Now.. It seems there is another issue with homemade DVD's. Is the Dye used on these disks going to prove they don't have longevity?? I was told by a sales rep for one of the major manufacturers that the dye and "lacquer" type material has to be balanced: hard enough to withstand minor "mis-handling" and "grubby fingers", BUT soft enough for low power lasers to "burn" the information on them.

My own conclusion... I think I'll leave the buying of a DVD writer for another year or 2 and see what happens!
My own productions look fine on good tape stock, and friends and family and more than happy with this "old fashioned" method of VHS!!!

Thats it

Mark

Hi

quote:DVDRG-AEW, P5025006300102

Seems like it may be a Princo disc.

What we need is the flag information written on the disc, something like Nero CD Speed and chosing Extra and Disc info from the menu.

Often the discs have incorrect flags on them, it maybe telling the recorder it is a TDK disc for example in order to allow x2 speed writing on some recorders.

The issue with this sort of thing is a) You got a dogdy manufacturer, so quality is in question and the discs are not DVD Approved, and b) If the disc mis-represents itself, it will not be burnt optimally, and any degradation that would normally be corrected by Error correction, can't be as it is all used up just correcting for a bad burn in the first place.

Many people have reported problems burning Bulkpaq (often nicknamed Bulkcr*p for obvious reasons) so the disc not lasting for more than a few months is not a surprise to me, be thankful it worked at all

I still feel we making a lot of nothing, and reports of cheap branded and unbranded discs not lasting for very long shouldn't really be a surprise. You get what you pay for and it is cheap for a reason, anyone arguing different is really kidding themselves in my opinion.

Regards

Philip

I am now finding that over 1/3 of my work now - and in some cases over 50% are being ordered as DVD. It`s true that I have pushed the sale of DVD`s.It will not be long before VHS tapes will be in the minority of orders.
I am very anxious though of the implications of degenerating discs - I have always used Branded - Not trusting them to Bogpak and similar.I have checked some Verbatim`s written over 18 months ago and they still seem OK. These too have been stored in a CD wallet.

When I was buying Apple discs last year for use with my DMR-E20, I put a box to one side for possible future use. Coincidentally, this was around the time of recording the 8 discs which have 'gone bad'. Yesterday I copied 4GB of data onto one using Nero, and all was fine until I tried to copy all the files back (as a test) - read errors.

These are all discs bought from Apple UK in February/March 2002, and have the original 'MXL' (Maxell) lead-in/dye. You can actually see the difference in the dye when comparing working versus faulty, the faulty discs have a much darker, almost grey, purple data side, and the ones which still work are lighter and more purple.

So basically 15-20% of my ‘MXL’ (Maxell) Apple discs (Feb-Apr 02) now have serious read errors. And judging by the fact that some discs that were written over a year ago, and one last night, it seems that age (of the media, not data) is the problem, as the discs created last year defiantly played back fine then. All of my ‘MCC’ (Mitsubishi Chemical Corp) Apple discs (Apr-Jun 02) are still working, as are my Verbatim (‘MCC’), TDK (‘TDK’), and FWS (‘Prodisc’ & ‘Ritek G03’), but these aren’t as old.

Chris.

Hi Philip,

Interesting stuff.

quote:Originally posted by PhilipL:
What we need is the flag information written on the disc, something like Nero CD Speed and chosing Extra and Disc info from the menu.

Nero CD Speed returns:

Manufacturer: TDK
Code: TDKG010000d9
Disk type: DVD-R
Usage: General
Recording speed: 1x

So, either this is a rebranded TDK disk or it's a complete fake; I'm not in a position to say which.

quote:I still feel we making a lot of nothing, and reports of cheap branded and unbranded discs not lasting for very long shouldn't really be a surprise. You get what you pay for and it is cheap for a reason, anyone arguing different is really kidding themselves in my opinion.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that this is a "head in sand" approach to the problem. Disks are clearly going off. Chris H's post above shows that Apple branded disks also appear to be deteriorating; this questions the reliability of Maxell disks. This is worrying for anyone who uses DVD-R.

As I said in an earlier post, just how much better are "big brand" DVD-R disks? Even if they're 10 times better, this still gives them a life of less than 5 years.

Personally, I see a great similarity between writable DVD right now and CD-R in the early days. Early CD-R disks didn't play in all CD players. This is the case with DVD-/+R right now. I have had big name CD-R disks deteriorate (see an earlier post). DVD-R disks are also deteriorating.

As a final question Philip, would you put your important data and movies on DVD-R and are you confident that they would play back in 15 years time?

Personally, I feel confident in commercial CD and DVD, but I don't trust writable DVD at the moment for any form of long term storage. I'd be interested to hear how confident other people are in this respect.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

[This message has been edited by AndyDean (edited 03 June 2003).]

Hi

quote: Nero CD Speed returns:
Manufacturer: TDK
Code: TDKG010000d9
Disk type: DVD-R
Usage: General
Recording speed: 1x

This disc is a complete fake, is not approved by the DVD Forum and will have been burnt non-optimally. It isn’t made by TDK, they do not make discs for anyone else, as the saying goes. TDK put out a press release several months ago slamming this practice of incorrect disc codes. The main problem is that the writer reads the code, thinks it has a TDK disc and uses its internal burning strategy tailored for the specific dye type of a genuine TDK disc. Of course the dye used by Princo has different characteristics and would not have burned correctly, your problems in your case stem from what is in affect pirated goods.

Why do Princo/Bulkpaq do it? Because their discs are not good enough to get approval from Pioneer for x2 speed burning, so their correct manufacturers code would only allow 1 speed burning, so they fake the code to get the discs to write at 2 speed. In this case your firmware is checking other things and has restricted burning to x1 speed anyway.

It is no surprise you have problems with these discs. It is like complaining to Levi’s your cheap pirate copy Levi jeans fell apart in the wash

See Pioneers FAQ at http://pioneer-customerrelations.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/pioneer.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_sid=nmyxpQKg&p_lva=&p_faqid=194&p_created=1036059816&p_sp

quote: Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think that this is a "head in sand" approach to the problem. Disks are clearly going off.

No I want take it the wrong way, just trying to balance out the argument But clearly in your particular case your problems stem from the media. It is “head in the sand” if you really think this sort of cheap media is actually manufactured to last, surely? If you wanted to put money on cheap media causing your problem or a big industry cover up over the longevity of DVD recordable, I know where my bet would be placed

quote: As I said in an earlier post, just how much better are "big brand" DVD-R disks? Even if they're 10 times better, this still gives them a life of less than 5 years.

Who says they are 10 times better? What if they are 100 times better, or a 1000 times better? It is very hard to make comparisons between a faked, non DVD Approved disc against the proper stuff, as they are at the opposite ends of the quality scale, and we do not know the lowest and highest values to be able to arrive at a relative difference.

quote: As a final question Philip, would you put your important data and movies on DVD-R and are you confident that they would play back in 15 years time?

The answer is yes, I do, and like 15 years ago when I was recording anything important to VHS, I always paid a premium and got good quality tapes. I do the same with DVD, but whether those discs are playable in 15 years time I will not know until I get there. However I suspect before then the discs have been transferred to some other form of storage medium.

As for the poster that had a bad “Apple”, they should return the disc back to them for checking. At the very least they would get some new blank media, but might also get an explanation as to why the disc failed.

Regards

Philip

[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 03 June 2003).]

Hi Philip,

Thanks again for your reply. Let's see if we can summarize this thread so far:

1. There appears to be some evidence that both unbranded and branded disks are deteriorating.

2. Unbranded disks are being sold marked as produced by other manufacturers and stamped with the DVD Forum approved logo.

3. We do not yet know the media lifetime required by the DVD-R spec, or indeed if there is one.

I think we first need to determine (3). Until we know how long the disks should last, we can't really complain that they're dying early. I can't find this information on the DVD Forum web site. I also can't find a "public" Email address on the web site either, but there is a press enquiry address ("only inquiries from mass media journalists will be answered"). Bob, could you do the honours?

If (2) is correct, this looks very much like a clear case of counterfeiting. A case for Trading Standards here in the UK? Surely you can't get away with selling disks that are copies of another brand. Similarly, doesn't the DVD Forum have something to say about disks that are using their logo without having been verified?

Finally, (1). We could send our accumulated duff disks off to be tested. I'd love to hear the explanation for the Apple/Maxell disk failure, from Apple or Maxell ideally.

I suspect that there's an interesting article or two in this for CV magazine if Bob wishes to pick up the baton here.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

Andy,

I've got the baton firmly in my grasp, and have commissioned journalists on both sides of the Atlantic to look into this.

I'm also willing to try to arrange for duff DVDs to be tested.

Bob C

quote: 1. There appears to be some evidence that both unbranded and branded disks are deteriorating.

Considering that billions of DVD-Rs have been recorded buy hundreds of millions of people over the last couple of years, I think the evidence suggests the contrary. A couple of isolated incidents is not evidence of a wider problem.

quote: 2. Unbranded disks are being sold marked as produced by other manufacturers and stamped with the DVD Forum approved logo.

Yes, like most products that make money, there are forgeries or dodgy products.

quote: 3. We do not yet know the media lifetime required by the DVD-R spec, or indeed if there is one.

We do know what the projected life time is, around 30 years for phase change (DVD-RW/DVD-RAM and +RW) and anywhere from 30 to 100 years for DVD-R and +R depending on the manufacturers claims. Of course these are simulated aging tests that arrive at these figures, but we are looking at considerably more than a few years for correct burns on legitimate media. The cases discussed here are more likely caused by dodgy media, or media that was either faulty in the case of the Apple disc, it happens.

quote: If (2) is correct, this looks very much like a clear case of counterfeiting. A case for Trading Standards here in the UK? Surely you can't get away with selling disks that are copies of another brand. Similarly, doesn't the DVD Forum have something to say about disks that are using their logo without having been verified?

Yes they do have things to say and actively try and stop it, but it isn’t all that easy is it. Lets face it, go to any town that has a market and buy counterfeit goods openly on sale.

quote: Finally, (1). We could send our accumulated duff disks off to be tested. I'd love to hear the explanation for the Apple/Maxell disk failure, from Apple or Maxell ideally.

All products have a failure rate. One disc out of the millions, they will just say it was faulty and replace the media.

I really do not understand the concern here, DVD recordable is like any other product, it will have manufacturing defects that will make a percentage fail. Why all the panic?

Regards

Philip

quote:Originally posted by PhilipL:
Considering that billions of DVD-Rs have been recorded buy hundreds of millions of people over the last couple of years, I think the evidence suggests the contrary. A couple of isolated incidents is not evidence of a wider problem.

Billions of DVD-Rs?

Hundreds of millions of people burning to DVD-R?

I very much doubt that DVD recording has become quite that popular!

Andy, John F, Peter W (and others),

Care to help me out by suggesting any additionl questions you think need to be put to the makers of DVD blanks and DVD hardware?

Ta

Bob C

Hi Bob,

quote:Originally posted by bcrabtree:
Andy, John F, Peter W (and others),

Care to help me out by suggesting any additionl questions you think need to be put to the makers of DVD blanks and DVD hardware?

Off the top of my head:

To the DVD-R manufacturer:

- What is the lifetime of your disks?
- Can the disk deteriorate over time? If so, why, and how can we minimise it?
- Does adding a label to the disk reduce its life? If so, why?

To Bulkpaq specifically:

- The disks are marked as manufactured by TDK. Are they?
- The disks have the DVD-R logo. Have they been verified by the DVD Forum?

To the DVD Forum:

- What is the minimum disk lifetime as required by the DVD-R specification? (or maybe a manufacturer will know the answer to this)
- What steps would you take against anyone printing the DVD-R logo on disks that had not been verified by yourselves?

Not on the deterioration topic directly, questions for manufacturers of DVD players and drives:

- Do your players read DVD-R disks? If not, why not?
- Do your players read DVD+R disks? If not, why not?

(It seems that DVD writer manufacturers are happy to sell us the writers, but aren't willing to back this up with a range of standalone DVD players that will actually play the disks. For example, the latest range of Sony DVD players (NS330 and NS430) talk about playing DVD-RW, but not -R or either of the "+" formats. A bit odd, when Sony were an advocate of the rival "+" format).

Also, where do you want me to send the duff disks? Is your CV address (Highgate Road, London) OK?

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

Hi Philip,

quote:Originally posted by PhilipL:
I really do not understand the concern here, DVD recordable is like any other product, it will have manufacturing defects that will make a percentage fail. Why all the panic?

What we need to find out is whether these cases are due to poor quality and/or a rogue batch, or whether they're indicative of a larger problem. At the moment, nobody has the answer to this question.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

You guys might be interested to hear that Disney will soon be 'renting' out DVD's for 48 hours which you don't need to return. The disc simply stops working after ~48 hours as it 'rusts' away.

It comes supplied in an air-tight bag and changes colour from silver to red over a period of a coupla days. Then it stops working.

quote:To Bulkpaq specifically:

- The disks are marked as manufactured by TDK. Are they?

I can answer that one. No they are not. TDK and Pioneer are actively pursuing ways of preventing manufacturers from fraudulently using false information. In fact I've even heard a rumour that future Pioneer firmware revisions will detect 'fake TDK' Princo media, and deliberately reject it, or even write bogus data to it to render it useless.

Going back to what I was talking about in my previous post, I've still got a coulple of unused, shrink wrapped Apple discs from last March, which are definatly from the bad batch. I might send it back to Apple and see what they've got to say.

Chris.

[This message has been edited by Chris H (edited 05 June 2003).]

Chris,

Can you send one to Apple, and one to me for testing?

Bob C

There is another tack to this.

Sifi has a demo that seems to be playing forever and a day. Sepulcre too. I presume the same machine is being used all the time?

Andy Dean says his older discs will play on the original machine used to write them, not on 3 others BUT will play on a newly built pc. Why?

Then you have Gerry Roffeys offering. He is probably the biggest user we have on board and he's saying 2% of his turnover. Now I'm betting that's quite a few and they'll all be on DIFFERENT machines.

Could it be the multitude of machines on offer with all their different specs and NOT the discs?

Just to clarify the original point, as a few tangents have arisen
This had nothing to do with discs not playing on various types of machines.
This is discs that were playing very happily for quite some time (well over a year in some cases) but then stopped playing or played with errors, and this didn't seem to be caused by obvious marks or scratches, nor was the clients machine changed.
In my case we have used exclusively Apple or (mainly) Verbatim discs.

All very interesting.

I thank God that I have been archiving old VHS/SVHS stuff to DV instead of DVD!

Hi Bob,

I've posted a couple of my DVDs today to the CV office address; let me know if there's any more information you need.

Best regards,

------------------

Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com

Red - thanks

Your lateral approach has given me an idea -I'm afraid it won't help everyone but...

All my programmes play on Pioneer 7300 players (industry standard), I use a Pioneer A03 burner. If I also use only Pioneer disks then I can surely lay the responibility firmly at the door of one company.

Bob are you still looking for faulty disks for testing? Should I send them to the address in the magazine?

I am in discussion with a hardware contractor about disks he has had playing more or less continualy for 4 years. I've asked him to find out the media type.

There is als a DVD forum which I visited a couple of times when I was trying to figure out how to author a single sequential programme chain for use with remote frame addressing control systems. I can't remember the address though. I would hope they were already a step ahead of us though. If I can find I will post.

Hi

Just to add, are we talking about discs that are constantly playing that seem to be failing? E.g. some exhibition or other?

The reason I ask is simple. DVDs are not designed for constantly being played. This doesn't matter if they are pressed or recordable. Discs should be stored vertically to prevent any chance of warping but when they are in a machine constantly they are horizontal, plus they are likely to be in elevated temperatures. They could easily be warping in the machine. The reason they often may play in the recorder is simple. DVD Recorders have much better tilt compensation servo's (this is required for burning) so they can cope with the now uneven disc surface.

This warping is not visible to the eye and would require careful measurement with a laser machine to map the surface and colour code peaks and troughs.

Also you cannot overlook handling? Discs that get played often (but not constantly as they are hardly handled of course) will be subject to the wear from removing and placing back the disc in the case. Most DVD cases grip the disc quite well and require the centre holding arm to be pressed down in order to release it. The number of times I have seen people not do this and basically force the disc out are plenty! The disc of course is seen to physically bend until it snaps out, this causes problems with the bonding as the two layers are being forced apart from each other, and again it also gives rise to warping.

DVD recordable discs are never up to the same quality of a stamped commercial DVD no matter how well they are burned. Minor handling damage to pressed DVDs will likely cause no noticeable problems, but on DVD recordable could easily push it over the edge of the players tolerances, i.e. it was only just coping playing a perfect DVD-R, and has no chance of playing even a slightly damaged DVD-R!

These issues go further than just the media. Not only that, but each person having problems playing a DVD recordable after a period of time are likely suffering from different causes.

Regards

Philip

quote:
Discs should be stored vertically to prevent any chance of warping

Hi

Yes bad design of storage racks.

However look at a good quality DVD plastic case, e.g. Amaray. Notice how the disc clips in and has no force whatsoever on the centre hole and it is fairly lose. This prevents damage to the centre spindle hole that is a critical part of the disc. Notice also that if the case is laid horizontal, the DVD is supported around its edge on a small ledge in the disc recess, this helps prevent warping as it isn't floating from the centre whole like it would in a CD case. These design elements of the case came about for a reason, to protect the disc as much as possible.

So if stored horizontal in a Amaray case (or one of equal quality) with the disc facing up, warping is minimised, but if stored upside down it isn't.

Cheaper DVD cases are often not so good, some put a great deal of pressure on the centre hole, and I have seen some that snap hold of disc forcing a downward pressure warping the disc as it is held tight in the case, not good.

While this thread is complaining about media going bad by concentrating on the disc itself, there are many other factors that are contributing to the few failures noted here.

Regards

Philip

Philip - I don't see how your argument holds up against manufacturers such as Pioneer who sell a range of players specifically for use in exhibitions and also sell burners and media for use within these players. I suspect you might be right about the enevitability of disk failure however, this would in my opionion put the responsibility on to the designers of the playback system ie the hardware contractor for specifiying a system which will likely lead to playback failure. I am going to speak to Andrew Wilson of Pioneer on Monday and see if I can get an official posistion on the subject.

The exhibition market only concerns a very small group of people not many of whom even frequent these boards. I posted this thread http://www.dvdoctor.net/cgi-bin/ubb/Forum6/HTML/002467.html
in the beginning of May and only really got a response from two people one of which was you Philip (for which I was very grateful). The problem is clearly much wider than this or the thread would have fizzled out ages ago. I have also archived some relitavely unimportant material to DVD never played it since archiving and then found the file unreadable some months later (I was probably storing them horizontaly but until your recent posts I was not aware that this was bad). Just think how many corporates are now delivered on DVD, plus wedding video's and just general Jo-Shmo who has been backing up stuff on them. For these people this is potentially disastrous and they should be made aware of the risks.

DVD will still be incredibly useful and I would not let this put anyone off getting a burner. It is still miles better than VHS and nearly all machines now play all the flavours and the media is cheaper than VHS and less expensive to post. There is now a very deep market penetration of players for end users and it can be viewed on computers in offices where there is no vhs/tv set-up. It is miles more searchable and offers incredible options for the carridge of meta data. But it is NOT SAFE FOR LONG TERM SECURE STORAGE.

On a side note I recently noticed that Kodac were advertising film as being a proven format for the long term storage of images - and who can argue even as recently as last year I was using material aquired 97 years ago in a project - pretty impressive!

Elbow,

Yes, please send discs for my attention to our office address:

Bob Crabtree
Computer Video
Highbury-WV
Unit 601/602
53-79 Highgate Road
London NW5 1TW.

Bob C

quote:Originally posted by elbow:
Red - thanks

Your lateral approach has given me an idea -I'm afraid it won't help everyone but...

All my programmes play on Pioneer 7300 players (industry standard), I use a Pioneer A03 burner. If I also use only Pioneer disks then I can surely lay the responibility firmly at the door of one company.

Bob are you still looking for faulty disks for testing? Should I send them to the address in the magazine?

I am in discussion with a hardware contractor about disks he has had playing more or less continualy for 4 years. I've asked him to find out the media type.

There is als a DVD forum which I visited a couple of times when I was trying to figure out how to author a single sequential programme chain for use with remote frame addressing control systems. I can't remember the address though. I would hope they were already a step ahead of us though. If I can find I will post.

If I could I would like to return to my point on litigation. We were talking about discs that stop playing at some time after they previously played well. The talk about duff discs from manufacturers misses the point about litigation. A family getting a wedding video done- seeing it working and then forgetting it for 5 years- then finds it "don't work". They go to the videographer and sue him/her, not the manufacturer of the disc. as I said before even a broke cine/VHS can be spliced, but a broke disc cannot be resurrected?? I fear that it is the small operator that is at risk in this debate.
Should all profesionally authored DVDs have a disclaimer saying that if you value the content arrange your own copying? After all Photographic developers are at pains to point out that films sent to them have no content value greater than the cost of the film!
Sooner or later the lawyers are going to debate this issue.
Regards
Tony Roberts

Interesting times indeed. In view of the worrying uncertainty would anybody care to advise on how to ensure you can bulk buy DVD's at a reasonable price and ensure they are not forgeries or poor quality?

The ONLY way, I'd have thought, is to buy from a company which has a reputation for being totally straight.

The firm selling blank DVDs that's most highly recommended here abouts is Lynx: www.lynxdvd.com

Hopefully, other folk will post here with their recommendations about different companies they rate, so you have some choices.

Bob C

quote:Originally posted by vermeer:
Interesting times indeed. In view of the worrying uncertainty would anybody care to advise on how to ensure you can bulk buy DVD's at a reasonable price and ensure they are not forgeries or poor quality?

Bob - I would tend to agree with your position. Indeed the last set of disks I purchased were from Lynx and so far there have been no complaints with these disks.

There are two things that have undermined my faith in Lynx regarding this topic: firstly the very beginning of this thread related to disks bought from Lynx and secondly Ian, who is normally quite active on these boards has not posted any encouraging words on this subject.

I spoke this week with Pioneer technical support regarding my own problems and was persuaded that these problems would not occur with TDK or Verbatum or Maxell media until somewhere between 70,000 and 100,000 hours of playing (on their own players).

Elbow's comments have put into words what I was thinking and I did expect that a comment as well worded as that one would provoke some sort of response, but it seems not.

Thanks Paul.

the problem may be that ian missed the posting by elbow , like i do with many back to myself , because i forget which threads i've responded to sometimes and therefore overlook the one i really wanted to keep track of.

elbow,

We have quite a detailed investigation of this whole subject in our September issue (on sale end of July), where it is made clear that a LOT of things can impact on the longevity of DVD media.

The list includes things I'd NEVER have thought of. The two that I found most surprising are:

Putting DVDs into CD cases (which can damage the discs!)

NOT storing the DVDs upright (which can cause discs to warp)

And these, of course, apply to ALL brands of DVD.

As for Ian's not commenting - I've discussed this with him, and I think he has good reasons not to comment, which he may or may not be able to explain hereabouts at a later date.

A little bit of lateral thinking about why this might be so, will almost certainly provide you with an answer.

As a clue - think about where the media that Ian sold came from.

Bob C

quote:Originally posted by elbow:
Bob - I would tend to agree with your position. Indeed the last set of disks I purchased were from Lynx and so far there have been no complaints with these disks.

There are two things that have undermined my faith in Lynx regarding this topic: firstly the very beginning of this thread related to disks bought from Lynx and secondly Ian, who is normally quite active on these boards has not posted any encouraging words on this subject.

I spoke this week with Pioneer technical support regarding my own problems and was persuaded that these problems would not occur with TDK or Verbatum or Maxell media until somewhere between 70,000 and 100,000 hours of playing (on their own players).

What would cause the discs to warp whilst in storage?

What causes warp? Heat and moisture as far as I know.

I can only see that they would warp under playing conditions unless they were placed on a window sill in direct sunlight and condensation was present.

That would be daft and also bring in other factors, wouldn't it?

Maybe they some of them are warped in production. If a disc was warped before it was written that might explain why some of them play on the master machine and not others. The master is the only one that can follow the contours.

Also computer specs may be higher than dvd specs. That would explain why warped discs play on pc's (better tracking on the laser)and not some dvd's (cheapo laser = crappy tracking).

I don't blame Ian for not commenting yet but please don't let that detract from the debate. I for one would like to get to the bottom of this.

[This message has been edited by red (edited 10 July 2003).]

Thanks Bob for your post which clears up quite a few points for me. I shall say nothing about Datasafe (good name eh!) this wasn't the media I bought from Ian anyway.

Can't wait to see the article - will it favour some brands more than others? I have to admit that when the August issue came out with loads of copy on new burners and nothing about the possible problems with disks I was beginning to think the manufacturers had got to you with bribes or threats - glad to know I was mistaken

I can of course understand the position Ian must be in (not least because effectively it passes down the chain to anyone supplying this media to third parties in a professional context). I have been very happy with the Lynx own brand DVD's and indeed have sent 18 of them for a permanent exhibition in Dubai back in April/May - so far no problems but one can't help wondering whether I'm sitting on a time bomb. I did try to email Ian directly about this but the mail address on his profile just bounced it back to me. If he or anyone wants to discuss anything with me, off the record, please feel free to mail me with a phone number. Many of us are in a vulnerable position regarding this topic. I wasn't trying to diss Lynx, I think they are a good company. Like everyone I'm just trying to provoke some answers.

Using VERBATIM DVD - R and burning with AO3, 4 and 5

several discs have been running for 5 months every day 8 hrs ish and no problems as yet!

Well the DVD players overheat sometimes - been very warm weather lately though!

Also - Since this thread started I have put a VERBATIM DVD-R written side / playing surface up! on the windowsill of my south facing back bedroom - we have had some terrific weather as well! after a month of rays - disc still plays normal - just a little test.

bill

[This message has been edited by billyboy (edited 11 July 2003).]

That's interesting. It's even more interesting if -r is dye based because they are the ones you would expect to warp or deteriorate under those conditions.

Blown my theory out of the water

I still think it is more to do with the track that is "stamped" into the dvd blank during manufacturing. I think that some are (the higher spec ones)are just done better, and so they hold up over time. I know that there is a coating put over it but if the spiral cut is not perfect to start with my guess and this is a guess could be the cause of the problem IMO this is the most critcal part of making the blank.

John

quote:Originally posted by elbow:
I have to admit that when the August issue came out with loads of copy on new burners and nothing about the possible problems with disks I was beginning to think the manufacturers had got to you with bribes or threats - glad to know I was mistaken

See p12 of the August mag - the Next issue section.

Bob C

This might interest the Sony writer owners
http://www.dvd-recordable.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News& file=article&sid=556&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

[This message has been edited by VideoDave (edited 14 July 2003).]

So if all layers that contribute to the making of a dvd are equal in content, say solids and moisture, then they will not warp. That is a good manufacturing process.

If these contents are unequal due to poor manufacturing then the layers they will fight against each other and warp the disc.

Does that make sense?

I have now had good communication with Ian and my faith in Lynx is renewed. I have aso been persuaded that Verbatim are the last word in quality disks and am sufficiently confident to be making a large purchase of the media to replace all my failing Bulkpac disks. (Unfortunately on this occassion I will not be buying from Lynx but only because they are out of stock!)
I shall be burning the disks on an A03 burner, Writing on them lightly with a cd marker,replacing them in their jewel cases (Or may paper sleeves be better?), storing them vertically in a cool envoronment away from direct sunlight and hand delivering them to my client and inserting them very carefully into the Pioneer 7300 players and hoping that they stay there playing 8 hours a day for at least two, preferably five years.

Any other tips or suggestions most welcome. Would like to wait for Bobs article to come out but I don't know if I can unless he may be persuaded to give us a sneak preview - eh Bob?

quote:Originally posted by elbow:
I have now had good communication with Ian and my faith in Lynx is renewed. I have aso been persuaded that Verbatim are the last word in quality disks and am sufficiently confident to be making a large purchase of the media to replace all my failing Bulkpac disks. (Unfortunately on this occassion I will not be buying from Lynx but only because they are out of stock!)
I shall be burning the disks on an A03 burner, Writing on them lightly with a cd marker,replacing them in their jewel cases (Or may paper sleeves be better?), storing them vertically in a cool envoronment away from direct sunlight and hand delivering them to my client and inserting them very carefully into the Pioneer 7300 players and hoping that they stay there playing 8 hours a day for at least two, preferably five years.

Any other tips or suggestions most welcome. Would like to wait for Bobs article to come out but I don't know if I can unless he may be persuaded to give us a sneak preview - eh Bob?

Elbow,

The bottom line, really, is buy media from a reputable seller; and store and handle with care.

A couple of comments

I think you may be rash in assuming that your discs will play 8 hours a day for years.

Far better, surely, to forewarn the client that discs may not last when subjected to this treatment, but assure them that they can buy replacements for a reasonable fee?

If the discs last, well, that's great, if they don't, then the client was forewarned and you've prepared for the eventuality, too, by having well-protected masters from which copies can be made.

And, on the subject of looking after your masters, there is NOTHING in our forthcoming article to suggest using paper sleeves is a good idea.

They should be stored in real DVD cases (which, apparently have looser-fitting fixing rings than CD cases), and stored upright away from heat and excess light.

Using black DVD cases would also seem to be an obvious choice given the above.

Bob C

I would be very suprised if the disk's would continue playing for that long.
As far as i'm aware(i know the people that did the system for the Dome)the only reliable form of constant playing is computer with mpeg decoder cards playing Mpeg files of hard drives.Any disk will warp if heated for too long.
Some time back i did some filming for of the in-store video for Blockbusters, they had the VHS tape playing all the time that they were open.A new one came out every month but in some cases the tapes didnt last that long and new ones had to be sent out.

Dvd's do have limits and i think that even if they have to replace them every 6 months there getting a good deal.Very little in the way of constant played images (for the big companies) is done via DVD as it is not reliable enough.If companies want this service then they will have to understand that if they want 100% full proof then pay the money, or have it on DVD and replace them every 6 months or less.

I think this is the ninetyfifth post on this subject. I have now digested the article in CV on DVD degradation. Lots of good advice on storing upright and if you talk nicely to them they will last 100 years!! This information CAN ONLY be based on conjecture and extrapolation from data on repeated plays of single DVDs. I would imagine the oldest DVDs in the world are no more than 10 years old. I still feel the critical point for all videographers who sell their output to clients, and do not keep a master copy i.e. wedding videos etc., is to know what advice to give the client about backup or replacement. Common sense tells me that every commissioned DVD professionally supplied should be in duplicate. Good advice would be to tell the client to try both copies at least once per year and when one of the DVDs does not play arrange another copy of the remaining one that does play. DVDs seem to be all or nothing.
The fact that this issue is now known and indeed common knowledge means that if a client "looses irretrievable personal footage" made by a videographer and he/she has not warned about this issue, they may be liable for damages. Warnings on packets of 35mm film that the film has no value other than a replacement 35 mm film, so favoured by mail order processors, would not pass as acceptable, when the problem is known and addressable. I feel the digital video industry needs legal counsel's advice on just what advice to customers is acceptable, with regard to this issue.
Regards
Tony Roberts

Am I right in thinking that the general message is use well known named discs rather than cheepies. Surely when work is being sold to customers there ia duty not to cheapskate. If discs are available at 85p or £2-95 there must be a difference in quality surely?

The conclusion seems to be store carefully and only use big brand names.

My own experience (admittedly in other areas than DVD) is that you often get the best balance of price and quality from people in the middle of the price range (ie not the cheapest, but not the big brand names).

Anyway Verbatim seemed to come out well from all this, then I had to laugh when I saw the thread below slating the quality of their latest DVDs:-
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=170740

Well thanks for that Paul it seems we have more or less swung full circle on this thread I can barely bring myself to think about it anymore. Thought it was just me but two of my recently burnt £3.50 Verbatims have become coasters!

The only sensible way forward I can see to avoid future litigation is to give the DVD's as viewing copies and supply the masters on DV tape and as a data mpeg2 file with the onus on the client to store and regularly check the integrity of the media. Clients are then free to use you or someone else for future duplication. Even if storing on DV tape there is a danger of dropout increasing over time and it would be sensible to clone the media at least every ten years. For me this is less important as most of my stuff will look dated in ten years and need replacing, although I do keep Digi-beta and DVcam masters of everything (in different places), but for you guys who do weddings this material is the kind of stuff people will want to show their grandchildren and beyond, so whether they could litigate or not, it is worth making them aware of the storage issues.

For me at the moment I am following Bob's advice to the letter, I have replaced my failing media with Verbatim disks purchased at £3.50 a pop from Jessops (they come in the nice big black DVD cases and all display a lifetime warranty on the media). I have also supplied the clients with a copy of the current CV magazine (doing great things for your circulation eh Bob) explaining that despite the fact that I am adopting industry best practise that the disks may still need to be replaced intermittantly and that I will stand the cost of replacements for the first three years after which time I will be making an expenses charge for further copies or supplying them with mpeg2 files for them to author themselves. Seems reasonable, after all projector bulbs wear out don't they, its just a similar thing.