An Edius question

Hello Ray, as far as I know, sadly... they are gone.
The DVCapture utility is also missing from Edius 6 as well btw.
http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20072

Thanks Tony

Oh dear. It makes me long for a new Computer Video magazine to arise, with a regular feature entitled 'We grill the designers' , in which these software people are quizzed about missing features, deletions, design flaws and all the other thoughtless decisions of which they apparently never learn, or never care, about the consequences.

The regression (backward progress) of these programs is similar to those radio and television reports about failures and scandals by officialdom where following the report, "No spokesman was available to answer our questions" which means "they are all too cowardly to face questioning because they know they are in the wrong".

Ray

1. Using edius 5 and stormhd , LHS screen shows incoming video while capturing.
2. RHS with overlay enabled allows me to see output on external monitor after choosing correct output from card , from timeline
3. I don't watch incoming video on an external monitor fed by the card , i watch the pc screen , as all my present work is personal or for web / VLE / streaming distribution.
I have however just tested the input fed back out to monitor , and it works.
There is no audio waveform overlay on the input , but there is on the timeline played back.

Gary,

a) Is what you show perhaps a feature of Edius 5 but not of Edius 6? (I don't have Edius 5 for comparison)
and
b) is the 'external monitor' feature that you describe only possible with a Canopus HD Storm but not with Canopus's HD Spark?

The Edius 6 Capture utility seems to be a very crude 'thrown together in five minutes' piece of software, with bits and bobs all over the place and lacking essential features.

Obviously I can check that pictures and sound are captured correctly once the file is placed upon the timeline but that could be 63 mins or 82 mins too late - I should to be able to monitor the incoming feed as it is being captured, not afterwards.

Ray

I don't have spark

My storm hd has HDMI in and out and component/s-video/composite in/out
If i want firewire , it's a seperate card.

I am still awaiting 6 as I am fighting with Canopus/Thomson/Grass Valley over purchase date.

Hi
I would suggest that capturing a long-GOP format in separated files for each camera stop/start is the only 'professional' way to do it, because (a) timecode isn't necessarily unbroken, and (b) continuous capture will break the I-frame/GOP continuity, as there will be two adjacent I-frames without any intervening GOP.

Since you are referring to HDV capture via FW (I guess) you have no control over the separate video and audio components, so audio metering will not provide any controllable function anyway.

As a long time user of Liquid which is no longer supported I`ve ordered a new edit suite from DVC running Edius 6 with an HD Spark & an ADVC55 analogue in! I`d hoped I was making the right choice but this post is causing some concerns! Have I made a bad decision?

Double post

I Edius 5 I was able to monitor the incoming sound, just cant remember how, might have been via the PC speakers. more likely my TV monitor.

Hi Paul

To take your last point first, it is not a 'controllable function' that is the point, it is being able to monitor the incoming signals for presence/absence, artifacts, etc.

With regard to 'professional' capturing, your suggestion runs into some practical problems. Here is such an instance. On many live events there is only one chance to record something and that 'something' may be happening at an unknown time in the future (for example the arrival of a 'famous' person at a venue). The need is therefore to avoid the camera unlacing after the usual delay and to do this a series of short recordings (a few seconds long) are made at regular intervals to keep the camera laced and ready for 'instant' recording. Now I certainly don't want these little snippets being generated as separate files and end up with perhaps dozens or even hundreds of files so the obvious way is to record all the snippets in one go and delete them in one go at the start of the edit.

With regard to GOP/I frame continuity, when capturing HDV in Edius, the mpeg2 file is converted into a special Canopus AVI file (for ease of timeline manipulation, I presume). I don't know, but I would hope that any I frame/GOP problems are sorted out at that point.

Ray

Barry

Since a true HD successor to Prem 6.5 was never produced, there are no 'right choices' - there are only 'least worst' choices.

Ray

Welcome aboard the Edius train Ray. If it's any consolation I think you've picked the best of the bunch out there and there are more thumbs up for Edius on this forum than there are for Premiere, FCP, Media 100, bla bla bal combined.

My CMU (Content Management Utility) does a fine job of capturing from SDHC card into Edius. Every scene is separated, but if you've shot continuously for 90 mins or shot 200 scenes in that time, they're all pulled to the timeline, in order, in one mouse click.

I realise this doesn't answer you specific question, it's just that I rather like Edius 5. Maybe I'll like 6 even better. And I too still use the incredibly useful Storm Video, Storm Audio and Storm Edit in combination with the bay's Storm card on my Pv6.5 pc. My fancy Edius pc doesn't have this, and I wonder why DVC omitted to mention this when I bought it?

tom.

Hi Tom

The fact that so many people (not just thee and me) are still using the 6.5/Storm combination so many years after it's introduction (when just about everything else from that time has fallen by the wayside) is proof that the design concepts were right - and it makes it very easy to spot subsequent design failures.

Ray

Barry

Your query about making a bad choice all depends upon the specification of your PC that DVC are supplying.

I question why you need the AVDC input as any decent PC still has a firewire connection on the motherboard which is a far better way of getting SD/HDV video into the PC.

The Spark as a single graphics card is also questionable, as a supplement for realtime previewing it can be argued that it is not necessary.

My 3.3GHz hex PC with ASUS P6x58D-E motherboard and nVidia GTX580 GPU eats AVCHD footage without any problems, no stuttering playback, at least 4 video streams and any video effect you want all playback in realtime.

Many Pc's are no longer coming with firewire on the motherboard , but a firewire card can easily be inserted into one of the pci slots ( assuming there is one spare. )

That doesn't give you analogue in , and if buying a avdc unit , your pc would need to have a firewire socket.

I need the AVDC input to enable me to ingest analogue material for clients as & when! The spec of the machine is 2.8Ghz Intel i7-930 Quad Core Hyper Threading, 2GB DDR3 1333 Ram CL9, nVidia GT 430 Gfx Card.

The question was more about my choice of editing software, Edius 6 as opposed to the machine. Having used VideoMachine & then Liquid from birth I`m faced with a learning curve made neccesary because of Liquid not being able to work with new formats.

Barry

Intel i7 930 is bottom of the range but OK
I'd make sure that they install a decent motherboard such as the ASUS P6x58D-E which can take the i7 980X hex chipset at some stage.

2Gb RAM is not enough in reality and 1333 is slow, get them to put in 6Gb of faster Corsair RAM compatible with the motherboard.

GPU is also bottom of the range, I'd go for the 460, 470 or 480

I'd get Windows 7 64 bit installed.

Edius 6 or Edius Neo 2.5(booster) or Neo 3 is the way to go.

Postscript: As my Edius 6 and HD Spark were bought from DVC I emailed them my question about the Edius capture utility. Here is the (distinctly enigmatic) reply.

"You are not missing anything.

Ringo - DVC technical support."

Ray

Motherboard is a Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R, intel X58, S1366, SLi/Xfire PCI-E 2.0, DDR3 with 6xSATA2, 2 Sata3 s x USB3.

Don't think I would agree with that.

Checked with DVC & the M/B they`re using is a higher spec than the ome you suggest, also, my mistake, 6GB ram being fitted & not using Corsair Ram as this is usually only fitted to laptops & should there be a problem with this RAM, it has to be sent back to the U.S. ! Thanks anyway.

Just saw this post and thought I would add a couple of things.

On the capture front as you have an HDSPARK you can only capture through FireWire (DV or HDV). This will not come out through the SPARK but as it is an exact copy of the original you do not need to see it as it captures on the SPARK output. If there is a problem there is no way of making it better anyway because firewire capture is an EXACT copy.

If you get a STORM then you can see what you are capturing through the STORM and that warns you of artefacts etc that may be created during capture. Like every other card artefacts created by compressing the footage too much are not seen until after capture. That has not changed for years (as I remember from the days of first using Miro DC1 and DC20).

I think the EDIUS capture does everything I want with the exception of visible audio levels and I do not miss the old STORM video at all. I would rather capture in the editing program (where all the footage will go in the same place as the project automatically, you won't get problems with timecode coming in incorrectly and clips end up in the bin ready to use as soon as you have finished capture) than in a separate program.

As far as HDV goes EDIUS will capture to either Canopus HQ or MPEG. We used to recommend HQ because it worked better but as long as you have a reasonably good machine I find capture at MPEG with EDIUS (ie take it straight off the camera in native format) works fine now. If you get the project settings right you can set EDIUS to "segment encode" so it does not remake sections when it does not have to.

As far as the PC goes we prefer the gigabyte boards to the ASUS at the moment for all sorts of reasons. We tend to quote for the 930 processor because although it is the first in the range it is also the cheapest and does a great job - I can get about 4 layers of AVCHD flying around in realtime. Higher processors will do more and cost more. We are quite happy for customers to pay us more money BTW and get a better processor - the 6 core i7s are really nice, but a lot more.

EDIUS does not really use the GPU for much (just some transitions and the vitascene effects) so we don't quote for an expensive one on the basis it won't improve EDIUS much. We now have a new titling program, Vistitle, which does use the GPU and is quite a lot better on a better graphic card so are starting to recommend the 450 instead of the 430 as it works quite a bit better. The 470 is better still but over £100 more. I am not sure it is worth the extra for EDIUS - it is a totally different story for Premiere where we do 470s with all the systems because it works their Mercury Playback Engine better.

For EDIUS will normally recommend 6GB RAM because EDIUS, being 32bit, will not take advantage of more. 12GB is nicer but more money. Again it is different for Premiere (the 64 bit CS5 version) as that will use the RAM.

Barry
The Gigabyte is a great board and a direct competitor to the ASUS P6x58D-E. In tests the ASUS came out very slightly better but not enough to worry about.

In future the Gigabyte MOBO in your PC can take an i7 980x Hex core CPU so upgrading should be a simple task

In RAM tests Corsair comes out faster.

For the vast majority no capture card or specific GPU output card is necessary, better to pay for a better spec PC

If people want to capture SD analogue then the Canopus ADVC 55 makes better financial sense than the Storm card or any higher spec ADVC product

Re the MOB`s, apparantly the Gigabyte has more connectivity & the Corsair Ram has the problems as already said.

Picking up on some of David's points:

The phrase you do not need to see it is an interesting choice of words because it makes my point about software designers (and, it seems, software retailers) trying to tell me what I need. Lets make it clear - it is not a question of "making it better", rather that Storm Video offered a valuable monitoring function (in pictures and sound) which the Edius designers have taken away, a retrograde step.

Lets take a practical example. Last Saturday's job involved shooting on three cameras, two of which were, at any one time, on 'static watch' ie they were locked off and recording continuously, waiting for events to happen. I won't need to use all of the recordings made by these cameras, but I will need to monitor the material to see what is there (spot checking). Doing that on the camera's LCD screen and tiny in-built speakers is, I'm sure you will agree, quite inadeqate.

With Storm Video I could simultaniously monitor pictures on the computer's screen and on the large screen in the stack in front of me, while listening to the sound (from two different mics located in two different places) on my studio monitor speakers and observing the individual sound levels on the bargraphs. All those facilities have been lost in Edius because, apparently, I "do not need them". Well, actually, yes I do.

Puzzled by this para as it seems to contradict "an exact copy of the original" in the earlier para. Or is it referring only to analogue capture?

Well, that's fine as a personal preference, but surely you're not suggesting that all users will have the same requirements? For example, to maintain 'good housekeeping' each of my jobs (projects) has its files categorised into folders - 'Captured Files', 'Project Files', 'Titles', 'Audio Files', 'Pics', 'Rendered Files', 'DVD1', 'DVD2' , etc, etc. Having the editing program 'automatically' put files in places because the editing program is designed that way can be a recipe for chaos - I like to have full control of the project and to know where everything is because I put it there - it gets the job done quicker.

That's interesting to hear. Is that information available on the DVC website or on the Thomson/Grass Valley/Edius website?

Ray

1. Edius was a complete build from scratch , so nothing was taken away , it was just not part of the build.

2. the spark card is output only , so , Edius teamed with the spark card gives you everything on the output side , and therefore sold to do that job.

3. have you tried installing the old storm capture software , i haven't , but it may well work ?

I'm perfectly happy with Edius and HDSpark. It does all I need, in ways that I like. That doesn't mean it's perfect (or even that I think it;s perfect) or that all potential users will agree. SD capture is via IEEE1394, same for HDV, and the same connection via a cheap TVone-task does all analogue SD in and out via 1394. I capture top-end HD via HDSDI with a BM Ultrascope, same software as the Intensity Shuttle (which is a lot cheaper but doesn't do HDSDI capture).

All software is designed by people who write software, you can't expect it always to be all things to all men, that way you get bloat-ware. At least the Edius software does what it does well and fast, which is all I could ever want from software.

Incidentally, the lonly time I used an editor with picons, I had to turn them off because I couldn't see which file was on the time-line, that's more important to me than seeing all the little pictures, I look at the big pictures, they tell me more.

The basic difference between the old Raptor and STORM cards and the current ones is that the old cards had firewire on board (because at the time motherboard firewire was dodgy) and now they do not. A couple of years ago all the motherboards had firewire on (it is starting to change now) and so why include something which people have anyway? Plus the software writers (ADOBE, GV etc) were writing the software expecting people to use the on board firewire so suddenly propriety things like the old STORM and RAPTOR cost more and started to be a pain (for example we have had large numbers of tech calls over the years complaining that people cannot plug their FireWire hard drives into DV STORMS, you cannot capture HDV with a DV STORM FireWire etc..).

Since the Firewire is not on the card it is harder to get it to be monitored through the card. So you have two options:
1) Plug the TV into the output of the camera when capturing and watch that.
2) Don't watch it when you capture watch it afterwards when it should be sitting in the bin split into scenes and can be accessed quicker in a non-linear way.

Would it be better to see it full screen via the SPARK as it captures - yes, but they can't because of other reasons (the same is true of Matrox and Black Magic cards). They added a tick box to Avid Media Composer recently so you could monitor different sources as you capture through the video hardware but this then creates more hassles when I do voice overs and other stuff. We actually recommend people leave it off.

I guess I am trying to say there are good reasons why you cannot do this anymore and it is not a case of the software writers ignoring what people want, but prioritising what is possible and weighing up possible problems.

I have to agree that every new version does not improve every part of the program. Take Premiere Pro CS5 for example - I think it is a huge leap forward for speed and stablity but to recording back to a DV tape you need to tick about 5 different boxes otherwise it does not work.

When I was talking about the STORM I was talking about analogue capture. The STORM captures everything into Canopus HD format and you can vary the compression. I use it for all my tutorials. I know if I don't set it to the fine settings I will get some artefacts caused by the compression, but you do not see those until you play the footage back. This is the same with everything, PCs, cameras and DVD recorders. You get an exact copy when capturing through FireWire.

As far as where files go - yup that is a personal preference. If you go into the settings in EDIUS and choose the option to give the clip a file name before capture then you can also specify to where it is captured and what the base name is.

Go to system settings - application - capture. Tick "Confirm file name at capture" and also tick "before capture".

If you leave "confirm reel name..." at the top of this screen ticked then it will also prompt you to give the tape a name when you start the capture dialog.

The HDV capture to MPEG is mentioned in the comparison between Premiere and EDIUS on my site - I don't know where it is on the GV one but they were the people that prompted me to change my comparison and say MPEG worked fine now. The segement encode stuff is on the EDIUS 5 tutorial I made.

Sorry for another long message. I can't resist defending the programmers. They don't get everything right and sometimes they make the wrong assumptions about what people really want in the real world (but that is why they have a bunch of real-world beta testers) but they don't just change things for no reason.

EDIUS is not perfect (none of the programs are) but I do think it is the one where they get the most stuff right!

David

If the programmers got it right then the only time they would need to upgrade the software was when there was a major change in our video recording technology, Hi8 > MiniDV > HDV > AVCHD > ?????

Doing it there way there is tempting us to buy a product update just because there are some nice to have features and not because we desperately need it.

If you are still into MiniDv and only shoot in SD then a Storm based PC with Premiere 6.5 is all that you need and over 5 versions of Premiere will not have been sold. Even with this setup the Storm card was a luxury as Premiere 6.5 played back DV video very well in realtime it was just the encoding that took an age.

Premiere lost me after CS3 and especially with CS5 and its requirements for a hefty specified PC to operate satisfactorily, now I'm firmly committed to Edius.

Not quite right, the improvements are often the adding of new features that users have suggested, and the addition of new coders or formats as they emerge. One of the nice newer features of Edius is the ability to manipulate big stills without losing resolution, it took quite a while to get that right, but Edius 6 now does, very nicely, what EditDV did extremely nicely back in 2000 :)

This new feature of Edius that Alan has mentioned means that from now on it looks like I'll be able to use Edius exclusively.

Previously it was difficult to manipulate large stills in the way that I wanted and cross-dissolves and other transitions were a disaster. Now, with the new 'Layouter' tool, I can manipulate them with keyframes and linear/bezier motion as I wish, with results viewable (mostly) in real time on an external monitor via the HD Spark card :) .

On my 2.8GHz Intel i7 computer transitions between two 6MB stills each with motion of their own can bring the machine to its knees - but rendering only takes a couple of minutes at most. I could have bought a higher spec processor, but while I'm waiting I count the money I saved ;) .

For me I think that Edius 6 with a card such as the HD Spark is as close as I'll get today to my old DV Storm and Premiere. It works for me.

NL

There have been some interesting points made since my last posting, but it's worth remembering that we are not talking here about a thirty quid "Turn your family video into a Hollywood movie" piece of software. Edius, Premiere, Vegas, etc are sold as professional programs, with Edius, for example, proudly claiming to 'Edit Anything'.

This means that higher standards are expected of the software designers of these programs. It is not enough to say
"Edius was a complete build from scratch , so nothing was taken away , it was just not part of the build"
because there is an obligation on the part of the designers of a professional program to do their research and look at what is already out there and how it is being used. If you are a present-day motor car designer you don't expect drivers to stick their arm out of the window to indicate a right turn - you install direction indicators lights because that's what people use. So, for example, Edius, with its blinkered "You don't need picture icons on the timeline" mindset is showing an arrogance which is very much at odds with its 'Edit Anything' slogan.*

Lets move now to
"They don't get everything right and sometimes they make the wrong assumptions about what people really want in the real world (but that is why they have a bunch of real-world beta testers)
Well, having been a beta tester in the early days of Premiere Pro I can testify that beta testing is too late in the design process to do more than, for example, tell the company if their program crashes when used with a particular graphics card or that there is a spelling mistake in a piece of text. It would need access to the design team at a much earlier stage (alpha testing?) to avoid the sort of omissions and flaws that, for example, went into Premiere Pro.
" but they don't just change things for no reason."
Then let the reasons be stated, Easy to do and makes the situation clear.

With regard to the Edius/HD Spark/Capture monitoring situation, the official description for the Spark states
"HDMI output for full-resolution real-time monitoring (my italics) from Edius NLE software. Embedded HDMI audio output and separate RCA jacks for high quality audio monitoring (my italics).
Each of those sentences is therefore missing a phrase, and that phrase is 'but not during capture'. A feature that was available in previous cards has been lost and that loss deserves an explanation. Easy to do and makes the situation clear.

Ray

You can't capture with a spark , so why would it allow you to monitor during capture.
As you can't capture with one , all your footage has to be imported via something else , or transferred from media to hard drive.

If they ask people what they want when designing a program and a very small number want the screen border to flash during capture , should they do that ?

Picons not being there does not stop me from editing anything/everything , but seems such a large part of your dislike for edius , again you may well be in the minority , and again , should everything requested by minorities get included in the program ?

If any Edius designers read that comment they should be blushing scarlet.

Nigel very neatly makes my point that new products should build and improve on the successes of the past. Why make a lesser product ?

Ray

Ray, I can't see anything wrong with Nigel's comment, what's the problem? All NLEs are changing, as the needs change. Analogue capture is now far less important than it used to be, so the NLEs are changing to reflect that, it's what I would expect to have to do if I were designing it. I can't see that Edius 6, as a product, is lesser than anything else I've ever seen for NLE.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely the incoming signal that is being captured flows along the PCI buses, else how would the graphics card and the sound card be able to access it? And if it flows along the PCI buses then the Spark card will have access to it.

In an earlier message David commented that the Avid Media Composer had such a facility (although he preferred not to use it) so it seems that the principle is quite valid even if the makers of the Spark choose not to implement it.

In the case of picons, it is not a question of asking for something 'new'. It is a case of including a fundamental feature which has been in editing software from the very early days and which is still a standard part of, for example, both Premiere and Vegas. For Edius to exclude it simply seems perverse.

Yes, of course one can edit without picons, in the same way that one can edit with one eye closed, but it doesn't mean that monocular vision is an improvement on binocular. Picons give a broad preview of as much of the timeline as one requires and enable changes in the coming frames to be spotted and planned for.

As it seems it needs a practical example to illustrate what is surely a very simple and obvious point, here is such an example (and only one example. There are many other situations that I could describe) : On my Sata Drive 3 is the footage from a five-camera music shoot. The five 1-hour clips are on five adjacent timelines. The cameras roam across the bands, picking up a guitar player here, then a bass, maybe over to the drums. There are solos, drum fills, musicians moving around the stage, fancy lighting effects. Using picons I have an overview of the whole set, with each camera's output laid out like a filmstrip. I can see where the events are ocurring and plan ahead for the best combination of shots. Without picons all I see is five blank strips. Which is better?

Trying to equate 'the screen border to flash during capture' with picons is simply not valid. Being able to see the actual frames that compose a video recording is such a fundamental requirement that I'm amazed anyone ever queries it.

Ray

Alan,
If you look back over my messages in this thread, you'll see that the point I'm trying to make is not about change of formats (analogue-DV-HD, etc) but about the loss of valuable tools with which to do editing. If the Head of Research Department had come to you and said "Alan, we'd like you to move on to some new and challenging video research. At the same time, we're taking away your waveform monitor because we've decided that you don't need it and we're giving you a new frequency analayser with reduced bandwidth" , would you feel that you were being best served?

Newer software should build and improve on the best of what came before.

Ray

Ray, that situation did actually happen to me in R&D, not is exactly those words, but near enough. And it was fine. I moved from one type of work into another, and the tools I needed were different. That's all I'm saying about NLEs, the needs change, so the software does as well.

And for multi-camera editing, all the newer NLEs will happily do it, including Edius. You get to see a bank of displays, just like in a real stack. You click on the channel you want, or on a number for it, and the edit happens, just like in a real mixer. Then you can go over it and fine tune it. I've still never understood the need for picons, I'd far rather have decent monitoring and the files on the time-line properly named.

I don't expect to be able to convince you, because we I know do things differently. I'm just pointing out that there are tools to do what you want, just not in the way you want to do them. I've spent an entire career in having to adapt to new ways, sometimes having to invent them, as time goes by. It's second nature to me.

Edius has never included picons on the timeline, except for the first and last on the clip or a user selected picon. From recollection they have always given priority to full resolution output and to the ability to mix different formats on the timeline. Again, from recollection, I believe it was once stated on the Edius forum that they could not accommodate all three features, so they made the more limited picon choice. If timeline picons are a must have feature, then Edius is not the right product.

I do not have a Spark card but, again from recollection, the reason for the card is to provide accurate colour output to a monitor free of the variability found in pc graphics cards. This card should, therefore, facilitate better colour correction when needed.

All spot on. The Spark delivers normal video on a normal video connector, so you use a proper video monitor.

Alan,

Your last comment has left me a little puzzled. The HD Spark only has an HDMI output for video. Does that count as a 'normal video connector'? And if it does, what would be a 'proper video monitor' these days? LCD? Plasma? Or are there CRT monitors available with an HDMI input?

(The HD Spark Pro has a HD-SDI outputs. Was that the one you were thinking of?)

Ray

Alan

I have just seen your reply post to my last post and you are oh so wrong.....!

For years on the official forums of both Adobe and Grass Valley users have been stating what they have found wrong with the software and what they want it to include.

If either Adobe or Grass Valley or any other editing software producer gave what everyone wants in a single version of their software they would only sell one product to each user.

By drip feeding from Premiere Pro 1 Adobe gets us to pay for the incremental and major upgrades for 1.5.....2.....2.5...3....4...5..etc (I am not sure if I have the paid incremental upgrades correct but the idea is the same) then by my rough reconning that is 6 upgrades since Premiere Pro 1 at over £200 per upgrade = a lot of cash.

I started editing back with Premiere 4.1 and then we had 5, then 6 then 6.5 then Premiere Pro started, now 4.1 was essentially for analogue Hi8, then MiniDV came along then HDV and now AVCHD. With this change in technology we should only have had 3 major upgrades in any editing software.

It took Adobe from Premiere 4.1 to 6.5 to get realtime playback from software, so are they in a hurry to improve further, no better to sell a product and then get the users to debug it and also for them to pay for the next version that may have removed some of the bugs but has introduced others.

At the end of the day Adobe and the rest are in the business to make money by providing a product that is almost but not quite what the punter wants, and it is so almost there that the punter is not likely to jump ship to a competitor.

When I first started editing video there essentially was only Premiere 4.1 or Ulead's Media Studio, now look at what we have.

Ray, HDMI is a ubiquitous connection. It carries uncompressed video. I have several displays which will accept HDMI, from 20" up to 42", and all are properly pixel-mapped to 1920x1080. And they're not even expensive, although the best ones are. Admittedly, old crt displays probably don't have HDMI, but then again, they're not up to proper HD either, so they don't really matter. And if I want to connect to an HDSDI monitor, I just convert HDMI to HDSDI using proper kit, it's easy, the kit's out there to be used.

Colin, what on earth is this about? What have I got so terribly wrong? I'm baffled.

Alan

Your post
.
.
Not quite right, the improvements are often the adding of new features that users have suggested, and the addition of new coders or formats as they emerge. One of the nice newer features of Edius is the ability to manipulate big stills without losing resolution, it took quite a while to get that right, but Edius 6 now does, very nicely, what EditDV did extremely nicely back in 2000 Not quite right, the improvements are often the adding of new features that users have suggested, and the addition of new coders or formats as they emerge. One of the nice newer features of Edius is the ability to manipulate big stills without losing resolution, it took quite a while to get that right, but Edius 6 now does, very nicely, what EditDV did extremely nicely back in 2000
.
.
Producers of editing software are in it for the profit.

That is what my reply to yours was about.

They will drip feed us improvements whilest reducing the capability of other elements to ensure that once we have bought their product we will continue to pay for upgrades so that they have a continuing market.

If they did not do this what would we have in the last 15 years, a very limited number of versions of Adobe Premiere such as: -
Version 1 = analogue
Version 2 = MiniDV
Version 3 = HDV
Version 4 = AVCHD

In fact what have we had? About 10 paid for versions which is a far amount of cash.

One of the things Ray said earlier in the thread is:

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely the incoming signal that is being captured flows along the PCI buses, else how would the graphics card and the sound card be able to access it? And if it flows along the PCI buses then the Spark card will have access to it. "

This is basically true but if you get a different card to access the PCI stream it can cause no end of problems. On Avid systems with Mojos we need to make sure that the interface cards are on different PCI buses and make sure they do not conflict with the buses on which hard drives (internal and external) are installed - one of the reasons we mainly use HP validated Xeons for Avid systems.

So basically doing as you say means lots of potential problems and crashing. When everything is on one card (RAPTOR and STORM) it was a lot easier. With the RAPTOR you even had to plug in an SVIDEO lead from the camera as well so you could monitor the signal.

BTW it depends on which stage of beta testing you are involved as to when it has an effect. I have been in a very early stage of testing on some programs and things I have suggested get included in the release. If I am a "regular" beta tester then things I want get included in the next version.

The software guys do not "drip feed" changes to the market so we paid for a new upgrade actually. They stuff as much as they can into the current version and then think of what they can add to the next one. If they cannot do things (and there is a huge list of what people want added to every program out there) then it is time that has stopped them.

BTW I always think in the real world that every improvement in anything (not just editing software) is two steps forward and one step back.

As for Picons I was told by the boss of InSync many years ago you have to pay a royality to use PICONS on the timeline. I do not know if that is still true. I always turn them off in Premiere editing HD because it really slows down the redraw of the timeline and like Alan I prefer to see the names of my clips.

I personally rarely watch my footage being dumped to the HD, but if that`s something you want to do, why not simply connect a TV monitor to your deck/cam so that you can watch it! Personally I think it`s wasting valuable time but we each have our methods of doing things.

Another Edius question. If I say yes to the upgrade from Edius 5 to the new 6, what arrives in the post - just some CDs that I can load without hassle and help? And if so, is there a dealer that's doing a great deal as it were?

tom.

You get a new dongle as well. The dongle for 5 doesn't work in 6. But, apart from that, yes it;s a set of disks as far as I'm aware (I haven't done it yet).

Tom, yes the Edius 6.01 DVD and a bonus CD.
I installed Edius 6 onto a clean install of Win7 error free.

The 'Upgrade From Edius 1/2/3/4/5' supplied by DVC contained three disks:-

A full version of Edius 6 - legitimate because I had a registered copy of Edius 1
Bonus software for Edius 6
Edius 6 Updates - essentially 6.01. This disk is supplied by DVC and text printed on the disk suggests reading the included pdf 'once Edius has been updated'

plus the dongle.

The Spark that I bought as a package with Edius 6 includes an installation manual which was written prior to Edius 6 appearing. These installation instructions are, as I discovered, to be ignored.

The Edius 6 booklet does not mention the Spark (or any other hardware) and Edius 6 does not seem to have any hardware drivers.

The driver for the HD Spark is in fact within the 6.01 upgrade but this is not mentioned apart from in DVC's pdf (which one is advised to read only after installation).

Since the HD Spark installation was so unclear, I contacted DVC. Here is their reply, as an aid to anyone else who buys this package and is installing on a 'clean' computer (no previous Edius versions).

"Physically put the Spark into the machine before installing Edius 6. That
way the Spark hardware installation will be taken care of when you update to
Edius 6.01.

Do not have any previous version of Edius on the machine before installing
version 6.

Ringo - DVC technical support."

Ray

Thanks gentlemen. So with v5.51 already on my Windows XP pro pc I won't have trouble loading the new version - the instructions are clear? I hate this side of editing.

I have NEVER had problems installing Edius when following the instructions.
Worst case scenario was 2 reboots to update other ''dependencies'' , which needed updated ( older stuff like photoalbum and imaginate )

Grass Valley has a free download of Title Motion Pro to those with Edius v5 to enable it to work with v6, but apparently this download only exists till the end of the year, after which it costs lots of money.

But it appears (from GV's website) that you have to have Edius 6 installed on your pc before you can obtain this download - is this correct?

tom.

Same here, never had a problem upgrading Edius.

I just received the 2 disks btw Edius 6.01 and the bonus CD.

I installed Edius 6 onto a clean install of Win7, no other version of Edius was install before.

Hi Tom

The only thing that distinguishes an 'Upgrade' from a 'Full Version' appears to be the sticker on the outside of the box. Inside, my guess is that it's the same disk.

This disk presumably includes a little utility that checks for the presence of a previous version. If it finds it, it deletes it. The handbook includes instructions about
"Create the customised setting file as a backup, such as keyboard shortcuts and uninstall the preinstalled Edius".

All very timesaving for the makers of Edius - they only have to produce one package with one type of disk. Edius 1 owners like me do rather well out of the deal but how do you feel as a man who has paid for all the upgrades along the way?

So, if you have only one computer, then you can only have Edius 6 installed (previous versions will be deleted).

However, if you have two computers, one could retain a previous version of Edius while on the other you could install an Edius 6 'Upgrade'.

Ray

Better than that, you can have 6 in all the machines you have, just move the dongle around.

The upgrade normally has 2 discs - the main one and a bonus one. We made our own extra disc of the patches to try and make life easier for people. The PDF explains how to set up preview device presets and capture presets as the way EDIUS deals with hardware has changed between EDIUS 5 and 6. The PDF is no use before you install the software - you need the software installed before you can set up the presets, hence suggesting you read the PDF after install.

We also include some capture and preview presets which you can load instead of following the instructions in the PDF. These were made with an HDSTORM so some bits will be irrelevant for HDSPARK and STORM 3G users.

We also had a problem recently with our presets when trying to record to DV tape - it only happened on an XP system, not Windows 7. We could not record 4:3 DV material to tape, where as 16:9 worked. This is because the "output hardware format settings" of our preset were set to 16:9. To cure this make another DV preset with 4:3 set in this TAB. If you don't understand that then give tech a ring - obviously try it first to see if it is a problem.

The current upgrade does not need a previous version of EDIUS installed and does not need an old serial number. Next year when the upgrade will ONLY be available to people who own EDIUS 5 I suspect you will need to enter your EDIUS 5 serial number when you install the software (this is what happened when we went from EDIUS 4-5).

If you buy a SPARK with EDIUS 6 (as opposed to hardware only and upgrade) you will get a 6.01 installer in the box.

You cannot run old and new versions of EDIUS or EDIUS and EDIUS Neo on the same computer.

Yes you can leave EDIUS 5 (or 4, 3 etc..) on another machine and use both at the same time. You can open EDIUS 5 projects in EDIUS 6, you cannot open EDIUS 6 projects in EDIUS 5.

The Title Motion Patch will be removed from the Grass Valley website soon so get it now since it will cost you £210 to get TMP for EDIUS 6 after the end of the year. To be honest I cannot remember the exact date GV were going to remove it so get it ASAP. It is in the EDIUS 5 section of the download site. I believe it can only be viewed by people who have also registered EDIUS 6.

Finally, Vitascene appears to have some screen re-draw problems with Windows Aero so I recommend turning that off (I always do that anyway).

I noticed when using EDIUS over christmas that you can use the new EDIUS full screen playback during capture. I have two screens connected and set the second one to display the picture on the player or recorder. Select the source then double click on the player window. The second screen now shows the player window full screen. Now capture. As you capture you see what you capture on the second screen.

You must double click on the player before you capture not after you start.

Not the same as seeing it on the output of the SPARK but better than the small player screen. Hope this helps.

That helps hugely, thanks David.

I have just captured video from my old MiniDV SD camcorder, this is the first time in 18 months that I have had to capture any video footage as I have been on AVCHD for 18 months.

How much easier and quicker life is, now that we have video on solid state cards and do not have to run the cature utility:-)

I recently bought my first AVCHD camera, used it recently in India & whilst I can see the advantages of the format especially the lack of dropouts experienced on HDV, I`m old fashioned enough to like to "See" the tape sat on the shelf! It may be some considerable time before we get round to editing the material & in the meantime you have to back it up a couple of times & pray you don`t have HD problems! Fores & against all formats!