Epson Cartridges

This is news to me.
I can't see how Epson could win there case against 'x' company selling epson compatible cartridges, but would/should win against a company who makes cartridges purported to be genuine epson but aren't.

If it is the former - and epson win their case for whatever reason - they could shoot themselves in the foot. Would you buy an epson printer in future if you were compelled to buy cartridges from one supplier who used their position to command unreasonable profit mark-up's.

Dave.

Epson have, indeed, been working their way around the world suing the pants off people who manufacture compatible cartridges on the grounds of patent infringement. Read all about it be googling "epson sues compatible cartridge manufacturers". Case is now in the High Court. Epson, of course, make their money from ink rather than printer sales.

"The lawsuits are not an effort to stamp out the third-party cartridge market and are aimed only at companies that have infringed Epson's patents, says Alastair Bourne, a spokesperson for Seiko Epson in Tokyo. "Lots of companies make ink cartridges [for Epson printers.] If it's fair competition we have no complaints.""

I imagine what'll happen is that all "reputable" 3rd party manufacturers will shut up shop, and it'll only be crap compatibles left to buy cheaply. Or pay dear for Epson. I have to say that I use real Epson black and third party colours. Just haven't found a compatible cartridge manufacturer that makes a really nice black black: they're usually a bit green.

Anyhow, the short answer to your question is "Yes, stock up now. Just in case".

Mark

Dave, don't forget those who have HP printers, they don't have as much "freedom" to obtain HP compatible cartridges & end up paying HP's prices!! I do have a HP unit but also have an Epson & guess which printer gets used the most!!!!
Cary

The issue isn't about creating "fake" genuine epson cartridges, but about bona-fide manufacturers of "compatible" cartridges using - without permission - Epson patented technology to manufactue those cartridges.. So basically the lawsuits - of which Epson have already won several - are about patent infringement, not piracy.

Absolutely right Dave. I believe the EU is looking into the whole printer ink supply situation - prompted by the introduction of chipped cartridge - and it will be interesting to see their eventual views. The EU is certainly not supportive of situations which tie you into one supplier. Look at their rulings on third party car spares for example.

Viking-direct do hp compatible.
There is a wide choice in my hardcopy.
To view on line, you have to enter printer name etc.
http://www.viking-direct.co.uk

Or have I missed point? I notice the 'viking-direct' compatible for hp cartridges are generally dearer then 'viking-direct' compatible for epson, canon etc, buy maybe it has more ink?
Possibly done under license??

Dave.

Hi All
Thanks for the replies so far. In these times of you only get what you pay for is there any members who have used compatables and found any that are better than others. There are plenty of adverts ranging from very cheap to quite expensive although much cheaer than originals. Lynx has been mentioned as a decent supplier on these forums.

Geoff

If the Lynx Epson compatibles are as good as their Canon ones, they will be fine!

I have found that Ink-Rite from APR are very good quality and value. Use them for the Epson R300 and 900. Also I believe that Epson have won their case in the USA and compatibles will be no more!

Harry

On the strength of this thread, last night I ordered three sets of cartridges (18 cartridges) from lynx at £6.38 per set + vat for my Epson R200. These were cheaper than Lynx last advertied, although the first time I ordered a set from Lynx they were £5.00 per set; very cheap! I also ordered three black cartridges at £1.52 each + vat. I can recommend Lynx for great service and a great product.

Before I ordered compatibles I was very wary as to what they might do to the printer and how good the quality would be; I have no issue with the quality of photos and DVD prints I have printed, the cartridges seem to last for ages, and I believe so long as you stick with the same ink manufacturor, you stand less chance of clogging the print heads than you would if you keep changing ink suppliers. Also, as the price of a full set of original cartridges is almost as much as the purchase of a new printer, what have you got to lose? I am on my third set of Lynx compatibles with no problems.

Rick.

No need to panic buy just yet, this has been going on for a few years.

@Dave R Smith - the price difference is because HP Cartridges are recycled original ones, and Epson are as we know original compatible ones, the HP print head is to complicated to make it financially viable to reproduce.

Same for Lexmark "Compatibles".

Aside from the initial set of Epson carts that came with the printer I have only ever used compatibles on my Color 880 and R200 - with cartridges supplied by either Lynx, Big Pockets or UKDVDR. I do a high volume of quality paper printing each week and have also printed direct to DVD on well over 3000 discs now.

From my own experience I think the claims that compatible cartridges either cause problems or aren't as good quality as the real thing are completely bogus - Epson's action suggests they know this to be true!

Jonathan S.

I've got to agree that Epson original cartridges are overpriced. Using compatibles with my R200 has saved me nearly £300 so far, and not a head clog in sight.

Even if the heads seize up tomorrow I'm still quids in given the relatively low cost of a replacement printer.

I have been thinking about changing to combatible cartridges for Epson printers for years now.
I keep saying that when this batch runs out I will go for the cheaper option.

On the "Gadget show" they compared printers and Epson came out best picture, second best for price per pic and most impressive was a test for fading.

They had all the prints for a week under what I assume was an ultra violet light with part of them masked. The Epson showed absolutely no sign of fading at all, which I can only think is because of the ink.

So perhaps I will carry on with the Epson for a while longer.

I am not a big fan of the Gadget show but this did seem a fairly good test.

BobA

Epson have taken their fight to another level today, I can't go into detail but let's just say it will have long lasting effects on the compatible cartridge industry.

Compatible are NOT dead, but things are about to change.

As soon as you can give details, please do, Ian. :)

Choice Stationery sent a customer mail shot the other day reprinting a Computer Active magazine article which sums up the situation and states Choice's stance:
http://www.choicestationery.com/epsonca.html

As I understand it the lawsuit in the high court hinges on two things:
The use/copying of a Patented cartridge design and / or The use/copying of a Patented ink formula.
If Choice's Think+ cartridges really don't infringe on any of Epson's patents then surely we should all be OK?

Alternatively, we can just carry on as normal by buying our compatible carts direct from Chinese or HK suppliers via e-Bay!

I, too, would like to know what Ian knows but can't reveal!

Hello again
I know Ian said not to panic buy just yet but on the strength of what he has posted today I have ordered two sets of cartridges for my r300 just to be on the safe side. I hope that I'm not too late and hope that Ian won't be overloaded with orders.

Geoff

I've just come back to this board after a long break, and found this topic interesting. I worked for Epson customer support between 1998 and 2000, which was the time Epson introduced the chipped cartridge. The original concept was that the printer and cartridge communicated to work as one, and thus stopped the use of 3rd party compatables and the consumer refilling the chipped cart when it was empty. Before compatible cartridges a[[eared, there were a flood of "chip resetter" device to curcumvent the chip, and at the time I left Epson they were taking several companies(mainly in the far east) through the courts.

At the same time both Epson and HP were in a product war, resulting in the disposable printer, as the cost to replace a set of cartridges exceeded the cost of the printer !

On a personal note, I've only once used an inkjet refil kit for my HP and found that there wasn't a great deal of saving, and the quality, whilst Ok for normal use, lacked the quality of a genuine HP cartridge. I now use genuine HP cartridges, but shop around for the keenest price (ie don't buy from PC world !!) - However I do re-fill the toner cartridge of my Samsung laser printer, which has worked out very echonomical and gives great results.

It would be interesting to hear a bit more of the "taken to a new level" stated in Ian's post (post 15) above.

My knowledge and how much I can share with you is governed by a Non-Disclosure Agreement.

What I can tell you is Epson are now targetting Retailers and have contacted several in the past few weeks with regard to withdrawing their products, most if not all have agreed to do so, up until now they had only targetted Importers (IMjet etc.) and most retailers, myself included, simply switched and shopped around whoever was left to get the supplies.

Our position on the matter is a simple one because the decision is outside of my control, our suppliers, who also supply many of the high street stores and larger respected internet retailers, will only supply the Patent cartridges from now on, so pretty soon our stock will be switched over to the new carts - we have chosen to identify these as the "Premier" range and the "Standard" range is the existing carts everybody knows and loves - having said that, the last delivery of the "Standard" carts received was 30% more in cost, so as soon as we hit that stock the prices will rise on these as well (and it's going to be soon that's for sure).

I would not, but I'd really like to see Epson's case tested in Court, their argument is pretty convincing enough to stop the likes of IMJet and Choice from selling their carts, but on the other hand is possibly breaking the Competition Act 1998 and Articles' 81 and 82 or the same EU Treaty - to quote:

"The Act will prohibit agreements which have the object or effect of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in the UK."

and:

"...which may constitute an abuse, such as limiting production, markets or technical development to the detriment of the consumer..."

Your view is your view.......

It's a technicality I know, but Epson's case hinges on the chip, the program, and the delivery method of the information, it's my understanding that the "Compatible" chips emulate the way the Epson chips work, but whether you can actually patent an electrical pulse is another matter and whoever you speak to legally gives you a different answer...

Ian, thanks for the update.

I would hate to be a judge in such case, Competition Act 1998 on one side, and breach of copyright, pattents and interlectual property rights on the other...

I think that if you came up with a product, took out a pattent, and copyrighted the design, and I came along and made a compatable widget for it, and sold it at half the price of your original, without your permission I think you would want to take me to the cleaners rather than pat me on the back for fair trading.

I assume by the disclosure notice this directly effects you, and I admire your standing of being informative without putting yourself in breach, thanks

Ian, thanks, too.

So, if I understand what you're saying: your "standard" range (which will soon be exhausted) will be superceded by a "premier" range (which will be more expensive because patent royalties have been paid on them to Epson) but technically they are identical.

Is that correct? TIA.

There was a good piece on The Gadget Show , last night , about compatible cartridges and refilling etc.

. There will come a time when we will thrash our inkjets ( no matter how good they are) for the newest model which is better and costs just a little less than the replacement inks of our older printers.
The standard of printers is now so high that it seems a pity to think this way but if you buy an inkjet for £99 and over 3 years youve spent £400 on inks the penny will drop and people will stop pandering to the likes of Epson if they say they give printers away and make money off inks.
I know which i would rather get a new printer or new set of inks!.
Most people now KNOW that for larger and multiple prints the online printing or high street sevices/ kiosks offer much better value for money (quality and quantity) and injets will end up only getting occassional use ( not what Epson or HP hope for).

Not identical no, but very similar in design, they have more ink in than the Standard ones and have their own Patent registered to the Manufacturer, but yes, I understand that Royalities are being paid to Epson for the chip technology which is a large chunk of the price.

@Malcolm, I see what you say and yes I'd be a bit pissed if somebody did that to me yea.

But I do believe that Epson's business model of selling you a printer at a loss and raking back thousands of percent in Cartridge sales has played a large part in their downfall.

The NDA is in place between me and my supplier, the action Epson are taking doesn't affect either of us directly, as they have taken steps to close the gate before the horse bolts :)

I recently purchased a set of compatible cartridges for Epson R200 from Lynx. Two cartridges were installed (at separate times) light magenta and light cyan, neither was recognised by the printer. The were removed and replaced by genuine Epson cartidges and all was fine. The compatible cartridges had to be disposed of as they were open. As a result of my emails, I believe that Lynx are looking into this (faulty chips)

John.
Quote from a posting of mine, re Epson R200, in 'Digital Photography
'

Good golly gosh !. I never get problems when replacing cartidges !. Is it possible that Epsom have tweaked the software in later runs to reject the compatables ? The only thing that bugs me is the almost constant ink running out blinking light , as it seem to take ages to actually run out. The most frequent replacements are (from the top) Light Cyan , Light magenta , Yellow,Black, Magenta & Cyan in that order. I know this as I have a little stock pile of the latter cartridges

I think that time has come and gone... I left Epson in 2000 and at that time they (and HP) brought out the first sub £50 printer, the cost of the cartridges at that time (RRP) was about £5 more. In effect the disposeable printer had come about.

At that time I never recommended anything else than using genuine Epson media and cartridges, and to be honest, there wasn't the amount to choose from on the high street. Also given the fact that it was technically a breach of the warranty if we found that the problem with a printer was caused through the use of refills or comaptible carts I couldn't do otherwise, (and you'll be surprised just how mant people left the non-epson carts in their printers !!

I went through two Epson printers (stylus 600 and 740) before getting miffed by the constant need to clean the heads and prime the tanks and purchasing my first HP printer (deskjet 5552) and IMO this has far exceeded the Epson machines for two reasons.

1) - The cartridge contains the print head, so you get a new print head every time the cartirige is replaced. Now this used to make HP cartridges more expensive than standard Epson cartridges, until they started chipping them, and then Epson were more expensive

2) - The HP printer does not need to run "self cleaning" cycles like the Espon. These priming cycles use up a lot of ink and unless you know the trick of powering off a stylus printer acter three cleans, the consumer ends up just wasting ink and not resolving the blockage in the heads.

On the subject of blocked heads, the cost of replacing a print head on a typical Epson Stylus printer was £120 (in 1999 - 2000) which again often made it cheaper to go out and buy a new printer... and often it wasn't an Epson !!

(sorry /rant :) )

well, I hate to say it, 5 complaints from (the amoutn we sell*) cartridges isn't bad (2 from here and 3 others - at least I'm honest!).
You guys, please email me your order numbers and I'll send you a couple sets, i think as I probably explained, it's physically impossible for us to test that a cart works before shipping it and we take it on trust that they work, sometimes they don't unfortunately but there is literally no way for us to tell.

*I waa going to say how many we'd sold this year, but changed my mind, you never know who's watching.

Hello again to the Epson owners

When I started this thread I did not realize it would run and run. However in the latest copy of Computer Active there is a reply from Epsom which says that the chips are there to stop the ink running low and drawing air into the head and causing damage. If this is true then how soon after the low ink warning comes on should we replace the cartridge. At Lynx prices this is'nt so bad but even at these prices would we be throwing away a cartridge which was say one third full which is an enviromental waste. Does anybody out there know the answer.

Regards
Geoff

Just to add to the sum of human knowledge:

I've got an HP colour laser printer, bought it in May. Last week I had a problem, the Yellow light came on and wouldn't go out, and it wouldn't print anything. So I ran the HP utility (which insist on logging onto HP's site and running software there). It said that the light condition was an unknown condition and refused to do anything else. I ended up phoning HP and describing the problem, while doing this, I disconnected it from my network and repowered it several times, eventually it came up and the utility said that the yellow toner cartridge was down to 8%, but that should mean it could do another 100 sheets (about 700 through it since purchase). Feeling a bit miffed, I looked at Dabs for cartridges and found that there are two different sets for the printer, one holding twice as much toner as the other. From the data sheet, it's obious that the printer comes with the cheaper ones. Anyway, I ordered a big yellow one, which arrived next day. Put it in, and it all sprang back into life. So, I had to throw away 8% of toner, costing £6 or so (the new one cost £60, nearly as much as the new Canon iP4200 that arrived today).

Ho hum.

Alan,

If that was your first cartridge that came with the printer than this is quite normal, as nearly all manufactures supply "starter" cartridges with new printers, which tend to be half the volume of "standard" cartridges.

As for the price of the toner cartridge, did this also include the drum (shinny roller often green) which is often built into them these days ?? - I would also look at http://www.topinks.co.uk/acatalog/index.html as you might be able to purchase a refil or compatable cartridge at a lot less

Malcolm, my point was that HP is honest about it, there are two differently priced sets of cartridges, it's no secret. There's no drum in it, there's a roller feed out, but the drum's a separate, also replaceable component. All the bits that can wear out are replaceable. Interestingly, my new Canon iP4200's the same, tanks and heads all as consumer fitable spares.

Hi, If I can go back to the subject that this thread started with. Regarding compatable inks you might like to know that I am now using PRINT-RITE compatables which I buy from a markey stall. I have never had trouble with them and they cost £4 each which is a lot cheaper than Epson for the R300. Why I mention this is because PRINT-RITE pays royalties to Epson. Perhaps this could the price you will pay in future if other companies poay royalties to Epson.
Regards and a happy Xmas to all . Roy Alexander

Roy - you may well be right but at today's prices (and available stock) you are still paying more than 4 times what you need to.

Compatible carts are just 79p each (incl VAT) at UKDVDR
http://ukdvdr.co.uk/shop/R200-X-R220-R300-X-R500-X-R600X-c-269.html
Even with postage you'd still be quids in on buying a couple of sets.
The last batch I had from them were branded "RiDisc" (just like the popular blank DVDs).
On the back of Ian from Lynx DV's comments, I've been watching to see when/if the stocks dry up or increase in price...

Like you I've never had any significant problems with compatibles - with more than 3000 DVDs printed to date.

I spotted an interesting option for R200/ R210/ R300/ R310/R320/ RX510/ RX600 users at Big Pockets:
http://www.bigpockets.co.uk/Epson_Ink_Cartridges.php?lang=&search=R200&session=9d7acedf490bf357d60b23b39fa05362

Anyone got any experience of one of these???

Jonathan S.

I bought my previous set of R200 compatable inks from SVP. They were Ridisc. I went to re-order a few days ago but they are "out of stock". No mention of any being ordered in. I have now ordered the new carts from Ian at Lynx. It may be a little while before I use them, as I'Ve still got a few Ridisc left.

Cheers
Keith

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Print-Rite don't pay royalities to Epson, far from it in fact - more info here.

I expect that Mills will follow the process taken by their counterpart Dynamic Ink in the USA, they will fight Epson, loose and then enter a settlement than bans their products - more info here

For those that don't know Print-Rite is the brand name of Multi-Union Trading Company, a Hong Kong company who make cartridges and sell through their distribution channel worldwide, Dynamic Ink is/was their USA Distributor, and Mills Computer Products (International) Limited is their UK Distributor.

I quote from Epson directly:

Epson are quiet happy for people to sell compatible cartridges as long as they do not infringe the patents, to date they have directly or indirectly stopped the following companies distributing or selling cartridges that infringe their patents: Imjet, Cybajet, Smartjet, Datasafe (and all sub-brands like Ridisc, Ridata, Datawrite), Choice Stationery, Environmental Business Products Limited and a few smaller distributors - Mills and one or two others I can't name are presently subject to legal proceedings.

If any of you think this will blow over, cast your minds back to the Panasonic/Canon/Sony episodes a few years back about DVin enablers, it won't blow over I can guarantee you that - I can see one of two things going on, we all sell royality paid/3rtd party patent cartridges (like the ones filtering through now), or everybody buys Canon printers ;)

Ian
Many thanks for keeping us posted as to the situation. No doubt in time you will be letting us know if you will be able to continue selling cartridges but obviously not at the same price that you do at the moment. I'm sure you will still be a lot cheaper than Epson.

Geoff

Jeff as far as I'm aware none of our carts infringe Epson Patents (so I have been assured about 50 times in the last week), I must really update the pictures on our website, thanks for reminding me...

The supply problems we are having is because of the manufacturer who has stopped making the foam based ones in favour of the valve based ones (more reliable, easier to make, but twice the price), they have their reasons for doing this.

This whole problem was actually started in the UK about 9 months ago by a how can I say, an unrelated turf war, and it spiralled out of control to the point where we are today.

This idiotic turf war attracted the attention of Epson and the rest you know... with the two companies involved in the war not selling cartridges now hopefully the market will settle and become sensible, but unfortunately the fallout of this war has cost the industry about 5 very good distributors who never even got involved in the turf war at all and were totally innocent bystanders taken our by the wrath of Epson, and to be honest I cannot really blame Epson for what they have done if the truth be known.

Saving money on cartridge replacements prompted me to use Ian due to the referrals recommended from members of these forums. That said, whilst price is an issue to me, the service that Ian's company provides is excellent, and I shall remain a loyal customer for as long as that service exists. I placed an order quite recently that was short by one item. I e-mailed Lynx, and within 24 hours the problem was resolved and the missing part of the order was despatched immediately. Ian's response was unquestioning, unlike other retailers I have dealt with in the past, and while I assured Ian that the remainder of the order was for stock only and could be despatched within a week or two, he sent the missing item out within 24 hours.
I'm sure that Ian will remain competitive within the new "rules" that Epson compatible replacement cartridges are bound. His candid honesty shown in various threads he has contributed to on these and other forums, are a reflection of the way he conducts the running of his business at Lynx DV.

Rick.

I would have to second Rick's post.

I recently had an issue resolved by Ian that would have had a totally different outcome from most other suppliers I use. Ian's service and integrity are second to none.

Must agree with Rick, Dave & Sue's comments on the excellent service from Lynx.

Cheers.

appologies if i am being too paranoid but :

Our Contact details:
NRG Computing
49 Branton Street Stirling Scotland FK8 1HF
Phone: +44 (0)1786-450004
Fax: +44 (0)1786-450006
Email: sales@nrgcomputing.co.uk

and

MyDiskShop Ltd. 49 Barnton Street, Stirling, Scotland, FK8 1HF
Tel: +44 1786 450004 -- Fax: +44 1786 450006 -- E-Mail: sales@mydiskshop.co.uk

bit of a coincidence !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and 'Pleaes note that MyDiskShop (a trading name for NRG Computing Ltd.) ' (sic ) is a giveaway.

both companies web registration details trace using neotrace to exactly the same hosting company too ...........................

Thanks for that info Gary, Barnton St. is just a mile away from me, and I have passed the shop often. I will pop in there sometime during the next couple of days and give it the once over. Looks like I could save myself some cash on postage costs.

Cheers.