May 19, 2012 - 09:47
... and you know what happens when she sings?
I've been around these forums for over 13 years, but I think my regular visits will have to now cease. Things have changed a lot in that time and it's been quite a journey. Since the recent 'events' which seem to have resulted in a large loss of membership, I feel the forums have lost appeal, and their usefulness to me and I have no desire to use them on a daily basis as I once did.
Part of it is now there are just too many dick-heads and know-it-all wannabies around now who talk a good talk, rather than getting out there making or taking decent video. Too many who pontificate on issues they have only a vague grasp of... and very little real-world experience; or are hung up on technical capabilities of the tools. There's so many 'experts' who seem to have been in the industry 5-minutes; yet speak as if they've been doing it 30 years. My opinion has always been that it's about what you produce, rather than having the latest gadgets and I feel many people who frequent the forum now have lost sight of that. People still buy Ansel Adams posters... even though they were not shot on 23 Megapixel cameras.
I'm in the latter stages of downsizing my professional production operations. This is for personal reasons (that some of you will be aware of), and intend to take far less of an active role in video production in the immediate future. I will concentrate on another smaller 'skill-based' business venture I can run from home. I may take on a few small local video projects occasionally if I feel like it, but I've effectively retired from this business. You will see more stuff on eBay in the near future.
To those I consider friends and the friendly acquaintances I've made here over the years, and to those I respect and have had enjoyable discussions with, such as Dave F., Branny, Martin, Tom H., Alan, Ray, Bob, Gary and a number of others. If you want to keep in touch or would like to get in contact with me I hope you can find me via email on chromehead@btinternet.com or steve@megalith.tv It's been quite a ride at times and I thank you.
This will very probably be my last post.
Cheers, Chrome
May 19, 2012 - 10:00
#1
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
It's sad that this forum has declined, but it may hopefully be rekindled sometime down the line. There's a wealth of knowledge that's been ploughed into this forum and I do hope most members eventually return.
In the meantime, RESPECT to one of the 'megalith's of the industry. I know everyone who knows or knows of you or your work would acknowledge the contribution you have made to our wonderful world. Best of luck and good fortune to you and yours!
May 19, 2012 - 10:23
#2
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
All the very best Steve, I'm sure we'll keep in touch.
May 19, 2012 - 10:57
#3
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Sorry to see you go Chromedome :( I hope that as one of the characters of these forums you will still pop in from time to time. We have not really conversed too much over the years , but your hard edged opinion is refreshing to read and certainly has impact. From one pragmatist to another , be well.
PS still use SD ,Storm 2 , Prem 6.5 in the main and my phone is a Nokia N95.
May 20, 2012 - 10:01
#4
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I agree with almost all of that. It's sad to see it happen, because we had a really good thing going for a long time. Much of my time is now taken up in work for the international community, EBU, ITU, (AMPAS on the periphery), GTC and so on, trying to solve the problems you aren't really suffering yet.
I'll stay on, but I don't expect to get anything useful any more. And I hardly expect anybody to ask sensible questions before the loonies dive in and declaim specious solutions. Sad.
May 20, 2012 - 10:27
#5
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
It says a lot for the sense of community doesn't it. Many members here post elsewhere too, but it was never the same. We didn't even have to agree, but it never seemed to cause problems. Sadly, the people who design web forum software often forget that the software just lets a forum work, and isn't why people like a particular forum. Mess with it and it's dangerous. When a forum has downtime - people notice very quickly. When you get a radical change - sometimes necessary for technical reasons - it messes with the status quo. This forum now works differently, looks very different and is not so nice to use. Not the fault of the people running it, but definitely not an improvement.
Many old members are still here, but it's a bit like turning the Rovers return into a Whitbread gastro pub - just not where many people wish to be.
May 20, 2012 - 11:09
#6
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I'm afraid that the sentiments expressed in these posts are all too true.
Before everyone dashes off to pastures new, can I just express my gratitude for all the help I've received from members over the years.
For me video and photography are hobbies, but when I was starting to edit video using a computer the advice I received from these columns was invaluable. I hope sometimes I've been able to give something back to other members and friends in the amateur video community.
I'd particularly like to thank Alan Roberts, a leading expert and consultant on video matters, who has freely given so much advice on this forum.
NL
May 20, 2012 - 11:45
#7
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I don't understand the sentiments expressed in this thread.
So the forum software changed a bit, and the new site isn't quite as user friendly as the old site. But as Paul say's above, the software which runs a site is not really a significant factor. Its about the people and the knowledge and the interaction.
I post on a few forums, read lots more and am involved in the technical side of a handful of sites. I don't realy see the differences between the various bits of forum software as being very significant. some forums have features which others lack, but in the main the forum exists beyond the software used to run it.
All forums have a mixture of idiots, experts, newbies and old hands. Discussion is the process of people with differing opinions coming together and exchanging views, sometimes resulting in one or more parties changing their opinion.
Video is a fast moving world, the equipment and techniques have changed massively in the (relatively short) time i've been doing video work, when I stated reading Computer Video Magazine I was shooting on a borrowed low band 8mm video camera and editing on VHS machines with a pansonic vision mixer. This forum and the magazine helped me transition to a PC with a Rainbow Runner and Premiere 3 or Ulead (can't actually remember which i used first, neither worked very well!). Now I shoot onto cards and frequently work at resolutions which are beyond HD.
What I don't get is the current exodus from this site? It seems to be that the old hands are no longer wiling to help new people
Alan wrote:
And I hardly expect anybody to ask sensible questions before the loonies dive in and declaim specious solutions. Sad.
This is indeed sad, not everyone has decades of experience, and people starting out now are coming from a different place with different needs and expectations. It's easy to be dismissive of people who expect to make "cinematic" films on a shoestring, It may be idiotic to think you can make a decent film on a mobile phone, but there have always been silly questions, people used to take the time to provide guidance and help which enabled silly questions to be turned around into a goldmine of information. Now it seems that people don't bother, and so the overall quality of discussion has dropped.
This is really bad for the future of the site, if people can't be bothered to help each other then what is the point in having this website?
May 20, 2012 - 12:14
#8
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I think patience is lost when people circulate untruths without checking previous posts. Also when information is posted by experienced users that clarifies incorrect information it still turns up again later as fact.
I have returned after getting lost in the login system after the change. I was Bruce in Cardiff but could not login so have changed my name.
I have returned after getting lost in the login system after the change. I was Bruce in Cardiff but could not login so have changed my name.
I hope more people do come back as the info on this site has helped me greatly over the years. I have just bought a PMW-500 so will be working and supplying crewing services for a few years to come.
Good luck Chrome with your new ventures.
May 20, 2012 - 13:52
#9
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Tom, I think the fact that you don't understand the sentiments here is exactly what we're commenting on. Many of us have been here and helping each other since 1999. The tone was always friendly and courteous. It's not like that now.
May 20, 2012 - 15:18
#10
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
What Chrome said about bad advice is actually nowhere near so bad here as on other forums. Lots of newcomers to the arena seem to have very nice video equipment but get some very odd advice on things like sound and lighting. What seems to happen is that somebody makes a comment about 'never doing something' as it's WRONG, and then this advice gets perpetuated, and although I don't mind people taking a pop at me - after years of working with young people, it just slides over, some of this advice stops people even trying. I tried on another forum to explain that although we have LED/Tungsten and Fluorescent lighting now in common use, it's not just brightness, but the quality of light. People post up video clips of really horrible and raw lighting, and people say it's marvellous. You get all these people using the current buzzwords - especially Cinematic - in totally the wrong context, and nobody says anything. They don't understand phantom power v T-power, and when somebody wants a product for a set price - they tell them it's impossible to get quality sound/lighting/video for less than X dollars. Thankfully, even though it's quiet here by comparison, this kind of thing is not so common. Perhaps we're also lacking the 17 year old American people who seem to always be working with huge budgets - not a bad thing. I too, tend to accept anything Alan says as worthy reading - luckily all forums have their Alan in some shape or form, and (joke) it is VERY annoying when after owning something for quite a while, you try some of his setup info and discover what you were missing!
Perhaps we should just look at the forum as being re-born, and needing a bit of help to make it grow up. We did lose people, but we haven't got huge quantities of idiots - which some other forums have plenty of!
I think it would be sad if Chrome stops participating, hopefully he'll still continue to monitor, and then join in again when he feels ready.
Paul
May 20, 2012 - 15:19
#11
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Slow connection - posted twice. Sorry.
Paul
May 20, 2012 - 20:06
#12
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I agree that the tone of the forum has changed over time, when i first came here in 2000 everyone seemed happy to help each other and friendly regardless of relative skill level. People offered advise and discussed things in a friendly manor and there was a good community sprit which i guess came about as many of us were working in relative isolation with just the magazine and forum too keep us up to date with the latest developments. It didn't seem to matter if we were keen amateurs or seasoned pros there was a sprit of helping each other which was friendly and nice.
These days it seems that many of the "professional" people here are not so keen to help people starting out in the business. There is a fairly consistent level of sniping about "new mediah" types, who apparently are ruining the industry. People who are working professionally in TV (as shooting ADs or whatever) are dismissed as being clueless and a rather nasty attitude seem to of crept in where by anyone without 30+ years broadcast TV experience is ridiculed and dissuaded from posting.
For the forum to be a success into the future it needs to be accessible to new people, and anyone should be able to post a question or an answer if they feel that have something useful to contribute. Often questions have more than one answer and people who have just a few years professional experience might well have interesting solutions to propose, they shouldn't be made to feel intimidated because they haven't been a member for 15 years or because they have a job title such as Shooting AD.
May 20, 2012 - 18:40
#13
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I am a relative newcomer to the forum (just over 3 years) and now I'm praying that I'm not one of the newbies driving established members up the wall. I have found this forum really rewarding and it's the only film making forum I have bookmarked that I look at at least once a day.
We have all had differing issues since the site crashed and was restored earlier this year but I had no idea there was also such a feeling of disillusion amongst the longer term members.
I have found some of the topics quite daunting and frankly over my head and I've always felt I'm a question asker more than a question answerer. Over my three years on the forum that balance has shifted a bit but I still feel like a bit of newbie.
I hope the forum continues because it has helped me greatly and must surely have helped many others too. But ultimately it's up to forum members to keep posting and build up again.
John D johnross93.freeserve.co.uk
May 20, 2012 - 19:23
#14
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Alan Roberts wrote:
Tom, I think the fact that you don't understand the sentiments here is exactly what we're commenting on. Many of us have been here and helping each other since 1999. The tone was always friendly and courteous. It's not like that now.
The more you study the posts, the more you realise how true this is :)
May 20, 2012 - 19:47
#15
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
sleepytom wrote:
when I started reading Computer Video Magazine I was shooting on a borrowed low band 8mm video camera and editing on VHS machines with a pansonic vision mixer. This forum and the magazine helped me transition to a PC with a Rainbow Runner and Premiere 3 or Ulead (can't actually remember which i used first, neither worked very well!).
Me too Tom! Though my mixer was bought by a company that made them in their converted garage in Maidstone. Can't actually remember the name. Tech something or other. I've been here since the original forum before these. They have been without a doubt the most useful & helpful forums I've ever had the pleasure to be a member of. (And I frequent forums on other subjects too).
I well remember in those 'Rainbow Runner' days, at 2:00am firing off an e-mail to Bob (Before any forum existed) in desperation when trying to finish my 10min masterpiece. LOL. I got a reply back in 5mins! That's not to say, there haven't been any 'bun fights' from time to time. Quite entertaining. 
The crash here coincided with my update to Vegas 11.0 which was quite problematical, so I've spent more time over at the Sony forums. That's become a habit, and taken over from my daily visit here. I'm actually making myself pop-in here every day now. Yes, it's changed, as many of the old regulars either haven't come back, or have moved on. It's a bit like your local being taken over by a new landlord, and some of the old regulars moving to the pub up the road. I hope these BBs keep going and that the real experts keep putting us right when we need it. Without their input, I'm not sure they'll survive - like Computer Video mag, which we all hated to see fail - and it's STILL not been replaced on the shelves! 
May 20, 2012 - 22:31
#16
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Moving forward is always a good thing Chrome. All the best to you and this forum also, as it moves forward.
May 21, 2012 - 07:20
#17
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Chrome - you've really opened the floodgates - and you're right!
My own involvement with this forum has dropped away, and here's the reasons:
1. The closedown at the beginning of the year wasn't handled well - there was no warning and no courtesy email to existing registered users to explain the situation. That lost a a lot of people.
2. The struggle to get started up again, with all the logging in problems, could have been handled better. Again, where was the courtesy email to registered users. We could have done without all the mystery about what was going on, as well. More people lost
3. The choice of software to run the board was, to me, wrong. Compared to, say, the open-source phpBB which is used in many places, this software with its acres of blank white space is simply unfriendly and doesn't encourage involvment..
4. The redirect from the old DV Doc which disappeared suddenly and without warning a week ago has presumably lost a few more people.
5. Compared to the old DV Doc board, this setup is very slow to react and update
Interestingly, there is a parallel with the developments in video editing software in the last ten years.
Having been 'spoilt' by the very special combination of Premiere 6.5 and DV Storm for SD I've struggled (and failed) to find its equivalent for high definition editing. The choices on offer are full of 'toys' but they can't get the basics (like smooth sound scrubbing) right. John AV (above) is not alone in continuing to use 6.5/Storm - and there are an awful lot more people out there who do the same. Why stay with a 10 year old system? Because the present offerings just aren't good enough.
Likewise, if we had the choice of the old DV Doc board back again or to stay with this one I've no doubt what the reaction would be!
Ray
May 21, 2012 - 11:42
#18
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
All the best and I agree with a lot of what has been said but there will always be a place for our network of expert advice but if people chose to think they know better then so be it, they will probably end up re-inventing the wheels and wasting their time or going round in circles.
I still love my job and all things related to video and audio and have been lucky to have a career lasting over 32 years, I am still learning and value the advice and discussions that have happened here in the past and know that there are some good people that can be relied on to be generous with their knowledge and experience.
Now anyway does anyone know where I can get a digital 5.1 holophonic zoom mic to go with my full HD 3D 4k fone??? 
May 21, 2012 - 15:28
#19
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I'm hanging around, but only pop in every two or three days now when I remember - and often find one new thread.
I used to look in 5 or 6 times a day.
I don't like the new board and for some reason I need to log in pretty much every time.
It's a shame as I learnt a lot and hope that I helped some from time to time.
I contribute to motorbike forums as well, and as said by others, some boards are full or argument and others aren't. People get tetchy about stuff on boards and maybe should think before they post stuff
May 21, 2012 - 18:06
#20
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
We should all be mindful that these boards cost us nothing, but someone somewhere must be being generous with their time & money for them to continue. As with anything in life, the older experts/members will move on, and newer ones will take their place. It's a natural progression. Nothing lasts forever.
May 27, 2012 - 18:05
#21
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
If you are going to insult new members by calling them 'dick heads' and 'know it all wannabies', than I suggest it is time you left.
If you don't , all you will end up doing is 'killing' the forum, and leaving it to a few old 'has been', 'close minded', muddlers, like
you seem to be becoming.
Look on the bright side, and don't forget that ; "everything is in a constant state of change".
Kind regards,
Fred D. (A know it all well wisher)
May 27, 2012 - 19:28
#22
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
StopMoFred wrote:
If you are going to insult new members by calling them 'dick heads' and 'know it all wannabies', than I suggest it is time you left.If you don't , all you will end up doing is 'killing' the forum, and leaving it to a few old 'has been', 'close minded', muddlers, likeyou seem to be becoming.Look on the bright side, and don't forget that ; "everything is in a constant state of change".Kind regards,Fred D. (A know it all well wisher)
Yes , everything is in a state of change, but in my experience it always seems to go full circle !
May 27, 2012 - 23:02
#23
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
1998-2012
A long time
A mass of experience gained and imparted.
15 years ago digital video was a pioneering journey, today it is largely plug and play.
DV Doctor subscribers are generally those who want to push boundaries as Chrome did many years ago...
Be they amateur/semi pro or Pro the main feature has and should continue to be self help, not "I am better than you".
I have benefited from advice, spent money on "bargains" and enjoyed banter , those are to me key benefits of this site (and the personal help/support). Please don't let us lose any of this?
May 28, 2012 - 00:45
#24
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
StopMoFred wrote:
If you are going to insult new members by calling them 'Dick Heads' and 'know it all wannabies', than I suggest it is time you left.If you don't , all you will end up doing is 'killing' the forum, and leaving it to a few old 'has been', 'close minded', muddlers, likeyou seem to be becoming.Look on the bright side, and don't forget that ; "everything is in a constant state of change".Kind regards,Fred D. (A know it all well wisher)
Well said Fred.
I hadn't noticed that Chrome had used descriptions of fellow forum members like that and so I want to withdraw my earlier good wishes to you Chrome.
I've just changed my avatar because I was so offended by your description of some members here.
Our crew at Thames won a BAFTA in 1977 for "Rock Follies". I have never mentioned this here since I joined but when I read this thread, and your description of your fellow members as " dick heads" etc. I felt that I should point out the quality of some of us "Dick Heads".
This forum will survive because it's organic and people will always ask questions and other people just cant resist giving answers.
I wish you a very long and high wide shot!!
May 28, 2012 - 10:34
#25
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
It's a pity you choose to take chrome's comment so personally Dugi. Just because you weren't named as a buddy, certainly doesn't mean you're one of the DHs.
There have been many, many willing and knowledgable contributors over the years who will hopefully return and I'm sure many of those will also recognise the ocassional DH comments too. :) They're a problem on all forums, but the regulars usually overlook them. :)
May 28, 2012 - 11:17
#26
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
It's a pity things have got like this.
The trouble is that when people start name calling and suggesting that there are 2 classes of people on a forum then a whole load of people can take things personally and think that they are being insulted (even if they are not).
I've found this site to be increasingly hostile towards newcomers, and whilst it is rare that this hostility is manifested explicitly there is a background level where people who are not part of the old boys club are marginalized. There have been threads which have been deleted simply because people didn't agree with Alan Roberts, There have been people who posted interesting things and had were full time cameramen banned because they refused to blindly accept everything posted here as fact, and had the audacity to point out mistakes that had been made in technical information by the forum leaders.
The real problem is that few people make the transition from question asker to question answerer. The self appointed forum leaders never admit they make mistakes on occasion. Anyone who tries to change these things is marginalized or banned.
No doubt certain people will have already put me into the dickhead camp, so i feel i have little to lose by writing this. It's sad though as I had a lot of respect for DVDoctor, and have spent a considerable amount of time and effort attempting to fix the technical issues that the site has suffered from recently.
May 28, 2012 - 12:14
#27
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
There you go again, making and taking it personally. And that's the problem that's driving some of the older members away.
As far as I'm concerned, there's only one class of people here, those who have some knowledge and want more. None of us knows it all, or nothing, we help each other, that's the whole point. BUT, when it starts to get personal, as is clearly seen here, I get much less interested. I'm perfectly happy to offer information to those who ask for it, and to explain the science behind the information, but I'm not prepared to get into arguments.
And, to make things blindingly clear, I have never deleted any thread because of arguments. I have, on one occasion only in the 13 years during which I've been a Moderator (and not a self-appointed one, Bob Crabtree appointed me) deleted content from one thread. And that had nothing to do with disagreements. Since no-one queried my motive for that deletion, I didn't comment on it. However, should the special conditions which caused that event be repeated, I'd do it again without hesitation.
I have, however, just as all the other Moderators and Administrators have, banned people for bad manners, and deleted threads from spammers. Perhaps it the fact that we have done so that has kept the forum going for so long. I don't know.
May 28, 2012 - 12:33
#28
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I wasn't taking or making it personal Alan.
That's the issue, posts made from the perspective of someone outside of the old boys club are seen as not fitting in the the site paradigm, are taken as rocking the boat and pushing out the old members.
I've tried repeatedly to point out the issues as I see them, these comments are ignored or countered by accusations that I'm making some kind of personal issue out of things. I'm not. I'm trying to use my experience of helping to run various forums and websites to help this community. However hearing about how people feel doesn't seem important to the "older members".
I've tried my best to help, but it's clearly not wanted.
May 28, 2012 - 15:02
#29
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Tom, I really don't know how to deal with this. I'm trying very hard to understand your attitude, but it seems impossible. We're here to help, we try to do that, we manage it most of the time. It's only when it gets personal that things go wrong. Please stop making it personal.
May 28, 2012 - 16:46
#30
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
ChrisG wrote:
1998-2012I have benefited from advice, spent money on "bargains" and enjoyed banter , those are to me key benefits of this site (and the personal help/support). Please don't let us lose any of this?
Can we move on and back the benefits I posted earlier if that makes sense), most people will have read this thread and therefore those with a "short" writing style may temper their comments advice and discussion so we can get back to changing the world and solving Video/Digital issues
May 28, 2012 - 18:04
#31
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Good idea. Well said.
May 28, 2012 - 21:02
#32
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
An almost identical conversation is currently active on another forum I live on - and they've just instigated a 'be nice' policy. If people can't be nice, don't post - and if you do it will go. They are quite worried that the snappy behaviour drives away old members who hate that kind of thing and puts off new people. So it's not unique to this forum. People do just seem to have less patience!
Paul
May 28, 2012 - 21:44
#33
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I agree with the "plug and Play" observation - there's not much left to forge new frontiers with any more, it all pretty much works now, it's just a matter of exchanging old for new, and carrying on with the same workflow - the "go where no man has gone before" element has expired - to be replaced by theoretical discussions about 8K or 3D 6K or whatever, or which large sensor camera is better by what degree of noise factor - actually just a theorist domain.
I notice the GV forum is equally quiet - but that's for a different reason, probably overbearing corporate control resulting in a dull form of tunnel vision being required before you are allowed to post anything.
It's all rather passé I'm afraid , despite wanting it to be "how it was" it's no longer the same world, CS6 edits everything including RED, it integrates with everything, mostly all the software pretty much works and you no longer need to be an expert to get a result, I mean even a £50 copy of Power Director will edit and burn 3D BluRay as well as pretty much everything else - it's now easy to do it all - where's the fun in that?
I'll get my coat....
Paul :-)
May 28, 2012 - 23:09
#34
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Thanks to interlace issues, we'll always hit technical obstacles - I miss miniDV
John D johnross93.freeserve.co.uk
May 29, 2012 - 07:24
#35
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
It's easier ​at the mo Paul, but you haven't got to go back very far, and nothing could edit AVCHD smoothly. Heck, a while back Premiere couldn't edit any​​thing ​HD. Look around the forums for any NLE - there's plenty of folks having problems, including professionals. I'd agree that hardware & Software has caught up....for the moment. How's Premiere getting on with 3D?
How's Premiere getting on with 3D?
May 29, 2012 - 07:57
#36
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Sorry, I wasn't suggesting Ppro CS6 was the answer to everything! I would not try and edit 3D with it - but there are huge choices now, and most of the "wizardry" has gone - mmmm, give me DV lower field first or 8 Field Sequence PAL Subcarrier locked timecode, now your talking !!
Once upon a time you had to drink 20 cups of tea or go on holiday to render out that sequence from After Effects, now it's done as you consider heading for the pub, head down, keep working - if you can find a job that is.
Ah well, reminiscences aren't what they used to be - actually I just copied some old product from VHS - PAL SD 4:3 from 1988, for a client, to make them some DVD's - and good grief, how awful!! - we really have come a long way - lets not go back there!
OK, enough, enough already, on with the 3D tracking and IO tweaking, 3D particle build and compositing, gotta get this thing out of the door today!
Paul :-)
May 29, 2012 - 09:57
#37
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Quote:
actually I just copied some old product from VHS - PAL SD 4:3 from 1988, for a client, to make them some DVD's - and good grief, how awful!!
True but.....the memories recorded are often worth their weight in gold to the viewer and recorded using the technology of their time
A case of content winning over quality (For them) 
May 31, 2012 - 19:37
#38
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Content is King son, always has been, always will be ! 
June 10, 2012 - 22:42
#39
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
How can there be a network of advice if everyone is an expert? (I say that to include everyone)
In other words, if everyone wrote from the basis that they weren't an expert (even if they are), there wouldn't be a conflict and a lot of useful info would flow.
June 12, 2012 - 19:20
#40
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Now here's a funny thing:
On a certain forum dedicated to a Professional camera system, there was uproar when it was decided to move to a 'Real Name' policy. Everyone had to post as themselves, not some in-joke moniker or random nickname.
"We can't have this" they cried. "People interested in finding out about us will do Google Searches, and will find us asking strangers about how to set the exposure on our cameras. We'll look like foolish newbies."
Isn't this an interesting viewpoint? Do you think it has some validity?
On the other hand, I've found the most wonderful founts of knowledge who are willing to share insights - and one of the common traits is that they're happy to ask their peers and openly say 'I don't know' or 'I always assumed'.
Basically, as soon as a forum is dominated by Polemicists that have their reputations defined by their online presence, we're doomed. At this point, I'll stress that I'm thinking about the forums I frequent, leaving aside DVforum. I am thinking of the SMs of this world, the BBs and even to a certain extent, the BGs. They will simply not hear a malformed argument and treat it as an opportunity in elucidation, and simply turn it into an opportunity to boost their own online kudos score.
Fora such as DVforum, DVinfo, DVXuser et al are not Technical Support Forums, they are virtual pubs and glee clubs. That means there may be a bit of social misunderstanding, a bit of barracking, and as a group we can sort it all out. Heavy handed policing, banning, rules and regulations and so on feel like metal detectors at the entrance to the church hall. If we need them, we should look at the policy of who we're attracting, what we're offering, how we're doing it, where we're discussing it.
I've spent a lot of time on other boards, and now that I've found DVforum again, it's not changed that much and the barracking isn't half as bad as elsewhere.
If anyone should get a bit fed up around here, please drop in and spend some time at Red User. We'll keep your place warm back here.
June 12, 2012 - 20:00
#41
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
MattDavis wrote:
Now here's a funny thing:
Not sure I got the "funny" bit Matt but what a refreshing post to read on this site!
June 12, 2012 - 21:40
#42
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I got the funny peculiar thing Matt
If anyone knows it all please feel free to read this for some perspective
Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.
Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.
The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.
It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.
This excerpt from A Pale Blue Dot was inspired by an image taken, at Sagan's suggestion, by Voyager 1 on February 14, 1990. As the spacecraft left our planetary neighborhood for the fringes of the solar system, engineers turned it around for one last look at its home planet. Voyager 1 was about 6.4 billion kilometers (4 billion miles) away, and approximately 32 degrees above the ecliptic plane, when it captured this portrait of our world. Caught in the center of scattered light rays (a result of taking the picture so close to the Sun), Earth appears as a tiny point of light, a crescent only 0.12 pixel in size.
June 12, 2012 - 22:22
#43
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I am sorry but that is no way a broadcast quality camera and just look at all that noise, there is no shallow DOF and the image probably was taken on some prototype that was set up by an engineer and not a qualified DOP.
Besides I bet they didn't even bother to clean the lens with a selvyt cloth so that dot is probably just a spec of dust on the sensor or a rain spot on the front element, even worse they probably had left the flash gun on!
June 12, 2012 - 22:33
#44
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
The lens cap was removed from this camera for a clear picture
June 13, 2012 - 07:25
#45
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
johnpr98 wrote:
The lens cap was removed from this camera for a clear picture
Where's WALLY?
June 13, 2012 - 10:19
#46
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
For anyone who takes the Sagan piece more seriously, try and find the short story called 'Noise Level' by Raymond F. Jones.
I won't try and tell you the story (it will probably spoil it for you if reading it for the first time) but it offers a way forward for civilisation. Not through narrow-minded exclusion, but through the aquisition and filtering of broad-based knowledge.
Raymond Jones wrote in 1952, so he could not have forseen the internet but one of the huge advantages of our computer based world is its randomness and the immense possibilities that it offers for intelligent filtering.
As far as this forum is concerned, I'm happy for a wide input to take place - I can look after my own filtering.
Ray
June 13, 2012 - 11:44
#47
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Matt, I'm all in favour of real names. I've never hidden who I am, and can't understand people's need to hide.
June 13, 2012 - 19:04
#48
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
It's not a case of hiding anything. Many years ago when I first started using forums and the like I was asked to 'create a user name' - so I did as I was told and created one - it's a shortened form of my surname which I used to be known by - nothing sinister, just didn't know any better. (still don't)
robo
June 13, 2012 - 19:20
#49
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Bob never had a problem with usernames
In my 'umble' opinion It's a matter of personal choice and no ones business except the user, as long as their pseudonym isn't breaking any forum rules
June 13, 2012 - 19:51
#50
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
OK, fair dos. But I've never considered using a nickname or pseudonym, I can't see the point.
June 14, 2012 - 11:01
#51
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Alan Roberts wrote:
OK, fair dos. But I've never considered using a nickname or pseudonym, I can't see the point.
Nor me!
June 14, 2012 - 11:37
#52
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Some people just have a nickname or a company name or a name they use on the internet.
Imagine a hypothetical person called Christopher Balatone - His friends call him Chris, at school he was called Tony, on the internet he calls himself Bala.
He posts on a site about bird watching, and is a bit of an idiot who likes to argue with people. Other users on the site think that "Bala" is an idiot. Would it make any difference if they felt that "Tony" is an idiot? or that "Chris" is an idiot? or indeed that "Christopher Balatone" is an idiot.
put another way...
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet
By any other name would smell as sweet
------
The idea that somone using their "real name" will be more accountable, act more reasonably and behave in a better way towards others is simply not true. There are many examples all over the place of people being an ass, both using their real names and using pseudonyms. I can't see why people are so bothered about it?
June 14, 2012 - 12:02
#53
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Speaking personally, I'm not an advocate of 'Real Name' forums - it's a measure that's usually brought in where the 'Play Nice' directive falls down. Whilst I can see that the intention is that "when you post this somewhat blunt, direct response, would you actually say this to someone's face? Would you talk like that to someone you'd barely been introduced to?" - but as mentioned, the people such directives are aimed at tend to ignore it anyway.
I brought it up in passing only because of a certain type of person who's afraid of being 'spotted' on a forum, hence desiring anonymity and in some cases almost courting a 'Super Hero' status in the realms of hackers such as Captain Crunch... 'Fete me and I will bestow upon you a token of my wisdom; contradict me, and I will be your Keyser Soze and Troll you for ever more' sort of thing. Sigh. Nowt so queer as folk.
June 14, 2012 - 12:20
#54
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I think (from experience) the best way of people on forums getting on better is for the forum to organize real world events where people get to meet each other face to face, take part in genuine conversations and have a beer / cup of tea.
Not everyone has great written language skills, nor does everyone have the time to verbosely write a reply when making a point on a forum. People who've met face to face and got on tend to be more forgiving when communicating via the internet.
Half the problem is people taking offense where none is intended, and the process of meeting face to face really helps people to understand the intent of future internet based communication far better than any "rules" that a forum can bring in.
June 14, 2012 - 13:03
#55
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I've always used the same user name on every forum (apart from one, that wouldn't accept it - already taken) which is my real name plus initial. I don't see it makes any difference at all. You generally get to know members by their normal names anyway. (Flame = John, FX = Richard etc). What does matter is keeping a lid on real abuse and rudeness. There's been several entertaining bun fights here...and I've been involved in a couple myself. The mods have been grown up enough to leave it alone as long as it doesn't go over the top. I never say anything that I wouldn't say to someone's face in my local. It's a rule I learnt a looooooooong time ago. People have to realise though, that what would sound fine spoken, reads a bit differently - we're none of us Oscar Wilde.
June 14, 2012 - 13:19
#56
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Where members have a personal disagreement they should try and communicate via PM, open personal criticism on the forum threads puts a downer on the forum mood for everyone else.
Re: meeting members, I've met Bob, Chirpy, Alan, Ray, Tom, Gary, JohnW, Gavin, Mooblie and many others at the Computer Video and DVDoctor stand in London during the mid noughties, there have also been forum meets which I haven't attended, I think Chirpy's rice pudding was a guest most times 
The honest truth is that we all miss Bob's input, he would always tell it as it is
June 14, 2012 - 13:20
#57
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
We've had quite a few real meetings. In the early days, Computer Video mag had a stand at BVE and we met there. Some of us manned the stand as well for several years. We continue to meet at events like BVE. Plus, we held a party at Mooblie's place when the membership passed 5000. And I still meet old faces at events run by DVC in Hove and similar events.
June 14, 2012 - 15:08
#58
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
If I fully answered in retaliatory style what I've read so far I'd run the risk of stirring the mind of at least one . . . Like all others, I don't know everything but I've learned a thing or two! Never would I try to colour another's mind with my opinion when it has little to do with fact, especially when any one of us shows an interest in any particular branch of videography that so far has not been fully taken up.
A mixture of affordability, interest, expertise and want or need is the mainstay of any forum but especially this one. Unfortunately, there has been the odd occasion when opinion has stood partly in the way of friendly help or advice and whilst I remember such occasions, I find little worth in strongly opposing the prevailing style! My experience in life tells me to accept that the 'other person' is expressing an opinion which should be viewed entirely as such, even if the one who opined was putting points out in too strong a manner.
I just hope that as many as possible still continue with their visits and contributions. Too, I hope Chrome and others see fit to call again once in a while because I won't be the only one who will then reflect and silently approve with thanks!
I will always be able to recall Bob sitting on the pavement and tasting his first experience of Final Cut Pro. (Y'see Bob, your writing wasn't in vain!). I also regret not being able to take part in that first visit to Mooblie's place and remember jealously viewing pics from the result. (You did well there, Martin.) Some of us don't take a helluva lot of time with writing in the forum; that's not to admit that we're not sufficiently armed, interested, dick heads or shallow minded young breeds with a self opinionated style, nor even shy of writing. For myself, I would normally write when I consider I'm contributing in a required fashion, ie., to learn, help or advise, and those who do just that are earnestly requested to continue!
June 18, 2012 - 09:15
#59
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I'm one of those who used to spend a lot of time here.
The board software does matter, a lot. Although I am grateful for all the effort put into the current version I find it almost unusable on my office PC.
The reduction in the number of visitors is another problem and a bit of a vicious circle.
Less posts = less visits and less visitors.
In the early days we were all on the bleeding edge of the technology and shared information was vital, often on a daily basis.
Things are a lot more solid now and although there are still lots of delicious problems to solve the urgency seems to have gone.
However, if the board was less clunky then I would be here a lot more.
(I gave up trying to type this on the board, did it in notepad and copied and pasted it!)
June 18, 2012 - 09:47
#60
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I agree that the editor is poor, the text size almost too small to read. It's only because my eyesight is rather better than average that I can get away with it.
June 18, 2012 - 11:37
#61
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
The font size in the editor is the same as the size of font which google returns their search results - nobody seems to have an issue with the size of text which google use so why it is suddenly "too small to read" here is somewhat puzzling.
People who have trouble reading the text could learn how to use their browsers zoom function to increase the size of pages:- push CTRL and the + key to make things bigger, CTRL and - to reduce size, CTRL and 0 to return to default.
June 18, 2012 - 12:01
#62
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Tom, Google searches return font size much bigger on my PC than the font in this editor, all without my doing anything about it.
And I already know about changing font size , I've been ale to do that ever since I started web browsing about 1984. Sarcasm doesn't help. Having a decent sized font would help much more.
June 18, 2012 - 13:04
#63
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
sleepytom]
"The font size . . . . "
"People who have trouble reading the text could . . . . "
Y'know Sleepy, the style you're using is just the type that has been commented on above and which seems partly to have resolved Chrome's departure. If I'm wrong, I willingly apologize.
I do so like the friendly, helpful and advisory methods that have been a part of this forum over the years since it first commenced with only the rare departure from such a course.
June 18, 2012 - 13:54
#64
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
deleted
June 18, 2012 - 13:32
#65
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Quote:
Where members have a personal disagreement they should try and communicate via PM, open personal criticism on the forum threads puts a downer on the forum mood for everyone else.
June 18, 2012 - 20:51
#66
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I would love to be positive about the forum. It wasn't the text size I was referring to but the speed of reaction. This time it's OK but when I attempted to type the last post it was ridiculously slow and has been before.
I miss a lot of my forum friends and will try to look in more often.
June 18, 2012 - 20:59
#67
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I would love to be positive about the forum. It wasn't the text size I was referring to but the speed of reaction. This time it's OK but when I attempted to type the last post it was ridiculously slow and has been before.
I miss a lot of my forum friends and will try to look in more often.
A case in point! I hit "Save" and it took a dogs age to 'take' so I did it again. Hence the double post. (Edited in the case of this one)
June 18, 2012 - 21:13
#68
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
yes the server which this site is now on is very underpowered to run a large Drupal site on.
it would be good to get a better server, but given the entire reasoning behind switching to Drupal was the misguided idea that Drupal is cheaper than vBulletin it seems unlikely that anyone is going to be willing to stump up to pay for a faster server.
Personally I'd suggest that going back to vBulletin would be the best idea really. Drupal is not really suited to a large forum and this Drupal install is not performing correctly in a number of ways.
June 18, 2012 - 22:30
#69
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
sleepytom wrote:
Personally I'd suggest that going back to vBulletin would be the best idea really. Drupal is not really suited to a large forum and this Drupal install is not performing correctly in a number of ways.
I agree with your suggestion.
But who'd do the work?
Who'd pay for the server? (who is paying for hosting at the moment?)
Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC
June 18, 2012 - 23:24
#70
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Who knows???
Bob + Martin run the server. I think they hope to make money from it in the medium / long term.
They are both too busy or not interested in speaking up on these matters though. The bigger picture plans for the drupal site could be great if they ever happen, but the current install is quite broken and will be a lot of work to fix, I really think that given this it would be better to put a vbulletin install back on www.dvforums.com/forum - that would leave the possibility of putting a drupal on the root and having the option for more "official article" type content at some point in the future.
I really don't have any say in any of this though and so it is for Bob to decide what he feels is the best way forward.
I think it would be about 1 weeks work for a developer to go back to vbulletin. If there is a backup of the old site then it would be quite quick to get that upgraded to the latest version (1 day) - we could take a view on the loss of posts made on this drupal site, if people were happy to chuck them out then the process would be pretty simple and fast. That would probably be my preference.
http://www.jeremyhutchings.com/2011/08/all-that-glitters-isnt-drupal-cms-vs.html This post is very much inline with what has happened to DVDoctor - interestingly its written by someone with a huge amount of experience of both vBulletin and Drupal systems. (it should be noted that he is not arguing for the supremacy of vBuletin at all here, mealy for selecting the correct tools for the job in hand)
June 19, 2012 - 07:03
#71
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
It's easy enough to get in touch with Bob - I simply phoned him when one of the links to this ste was removed (without his knowledge) a month ago and he responded very quickly. However, a phone campaign would be unfair and intrusive.
Now that opinion is swinging in favour of different software to run this forum (thanks, Rob - good message), it's time for a referendum. I won't repeat all that I said in message #17 of this thread, I'll just suggest that a new topic is started (with a vote-counter and a title that makes things clear - no fat ladies) so that Bob and whoever else is involved realise that a lot of potential is being wasted because of inappropriate software and slow speed.
Ray
June 19, 2012 - 08:02
#72
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Not really my area - but this is a huge investment in time and money, so I can't see the point of a referendum, when everybody seems to be aware that the forum software is less than optimal for how we use it, and the real question is simply for the owners to decide what they wish to do. Us saying universally minded "we have decided we are 100% in favour of new software" if there is no money or time to countenance it!. We've made our point quite clear, and now it's up to somebody else to decide if it's feasable, or not.
June 19, 2012 - 08:03
#73
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Not really my area - but this is a huge investment in time and money, so I can't see the point of a referendum, when everybody seems to be aware that the forum software is less than optimal for how we use it, and the real question is simply for the owners to decide what they wish to do. Us saying universally minded "we have decided we are 100% in favour of new software" if there is no money or time to countenance it!. We've made our point quite clear, and now it's up to somebody else to decide if it's feasable, or not.
June 19, 2012 - 21:17
#74
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
The interesting thing is that the last time that the "Bob/ Martin" duo took an interest in posting on their own forum was when they were hammered by an ex member (allegedly) who was banned during a Moderator fever for banishing members. I do hope that the Bob/Martins aren't just in this to raise money as an earlier poster mentioned. That would be very grubby.
June 19, 2012 - 21:57
#75
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
The choice of the forum software is beyond our control, all the work done by Bob and Martin was to benefit the members of this very successful forum, with hindsight and without the pressure of a hacked forum things may have worked out differently. I am grateful that the forum still exists at all, the recent redirect fright should have focused minds.
Sadly infighting and condescending posts are the current threat, and turn off, not to be confused with constructive criticism.
Hopefully things will work out soon, to everyones satisfaction, the current situation of provocative personal name calling is depressing and uncalled for.
June 20, 2012 - 00:01
#76
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
FWIW
I've attempted to make some improvements to the editor and forum appearance today. Please see http://www.dvforums.com/pressflow/forums/increased-font-size-editor for details (please give feedback in that thread not here!)
I'm sorry if my post with the large text came over as rude or sarcastic, I didn't intend it to. I thought (perhaps misguidedly) that posting directions to use the browser zoom in a large font would be useful to people with poor eyesight. re-reading this thread tonight I can see that people might of seen it differently and for that i apologise.
I hope to find the time to put a bit more effort into getting the current drupal system to work better in the next few days. I need to spend a bit of time fiddling to see if i can resolve some of the fundamental issues we are suffering from. I'm hopeful that some of the performance issues can be dealt with and whilst the forums won't ever be quite as good as a vBulletin based forum I'm optimistic that we can build a system which works and will eventually have some advantages over a normal "out of the box" forum solution.
I'm very sorry if I have been snappy about some of these issues, it is hard when you have put a lot of time and effort into something to not take things personally, and I guess this is as true for long term regular posters who've contributed countless amounts of knowledge as it is for me and my attempts to fix some of the technical issues.
Cheers
Tom
June 20, 2012 - 06:40
#77
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Thank you Tom your hard work is much appreciated, the text looks great with the full width pages on mac safari!
June 20, 2012 - 06:50
#78
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Dugi wrote:
The interesting thing is that the last time that the "Bob/ Martin" duo took an interest in posting on their own forum was when they were hammered by an ex member (allegedly) who was banned during a Moderator fever for banishing members. I do hope that the Bob/Martins aren't just in this to raise money as an earlier poster mentioned. That would be very grubby.
Replying in the same vein - I couldn't 'give a toss' whether or not Bob and Martin make a million out of this forum. It's been very very good. I'd say it's amongst the best for what it's done and the way it has done it and I for one am exceedingly grateful for all the information flow I've witnessed over the years, so let's not descend into a criticism of those who have put their hearts into it . . . and that brings me to Sleepy; well done and thank you.
June 20, 2012 - 14:53
#79
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Tom, thanks for that, it's now a lot easier to enter text.
And I also understand how hard it can be to accept criticism and not get angry about it. I've been trying to do just that here for 13 years now. Often, when there's a question that needs a proper technical answer, I'll give it and then get an answer along the lines of "that's rubbish, I know how it works", when I can easily prove that not the be the case. It's hard not to get into arguments, and to interpret comments personally. That's why we all have to be so careful in wording postings.
June 23, 2012 - 17:58
#80
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
johnpr98 wrote:
The honest truth is that we all miss Bob's input, he would always tell it as it is
Aw, shucks!
Me tell it like it is?
Not likely!
Mind you, I did once say at an editorial meeting of ERT that that I thought the new look for the mag was a bucket of shit.
And this was only in part because no one was given any chance to make an input beforehand.
Largely, though, it was because it was true.
But the comment, of course, was quite out of character.
Cough!
Know that I'm trying to read this whole thread and get my head around it, the better to know whose arse (if any) needs kicking; whose forehead needs to be soothed; whose pardon needs to be asked; and to do all this in the least possible time, because, I have so little of that free.
Really?
Oh, yes!
Until recently, I've been getting up at 7am or so, to do 45mins on the rowing machine (minimum 7.5 kilometres) to kick off the day.
From the start of this week, it's been 6:30am (or 6:45am if I've had a late night) because rowing is now followed by 20-30 mins piano practise (yes, indeed, at my age I'm starting to learn the piano!).
Then shave, shower, breakfast and start work - typically about 9:15am. I then usually go through until about 9:30pm (often later) - though I do make a point to watch the more interesting Euro 2012 matches (oh, aren't Germany awesome?).
Anyway, I'm going to be trying to digest this thread and a bunch of others and try, as best as I can, to make some kind of posting that tells it how it is - in my far from humble opinion - before the weekend is out.
One final thing - I am genuinely most grateful to all the posters here. Up to the point I have reached (the post from which I quoted), almost everyone seems to me to be trying to be understanding of the opinions being expressed.
Cheers
Bob C
June 23, 2012 - 20:29
#81
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
bcrabtree wrote:
Anyway, I'm going to be trying to digest this thread and a bunch of others and try, as best as I can, to make some kind of posting that tells it how it is - in my far from humble opinion - before the weekend is out.
I think that is a really good idea Bob, if you care for the future of this forum.
June 24, 2012 - 07:41
#82
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Dugi wrote:
bcrabtree wrote:
. . . . if you care for the future of this forum.
Awe, c'mon Dugi - "care for . . ." ? Things are really degenerating if you think that way. The man was 'part and parcel' in starting the blooming thing. What is this? A bag of nails to finalise the coffin. Of course he cares - but in his own way that helped the interest and maintained it throughout the early years.
Someone who sits on a pavement to investigate then report on the beginnings of Final Cut Pro 1 to the rest of us at the time is, in my book totally caring.
June 24, 2012 - 22:31
#83
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Dugi wrote:
. . . . if you care for the future of this forum.
Ron Spicer wrote:
Awe, c'mon Dugi - "care for . . ." ? Things are really degenerating if you think that way. The man was 'part and parcel' in starting the blooming thing. What is this? A bag of nails to finalise the coffin. Of course he cares - but in his own way that helped the interest and maintained it throughout the early years.
Someone who sits on a pavement to investigate then report on the beginnings of Final Cut Pro 1 to the rest of us at the time is, in my book totally caring.
++++++++++++
Ron,
I appreciate your kind words but, although Dugi may not have stated his view in the most diplomatic of ways, he does have a valid point.
When Computer Video magazine was launched, I was on something of a mission. That mission was to make video editing possible for those who wanted or needed to do it.
That was my life's work and I was totally dedicated to it in much the same stupid way that I am today to running my business sorting out people's computer problems (plus ça change?)
Back then, a high-spec video-editing system would have had a 2GB RAID array of SCSI drives at best; some ridiculously small amount of RAM (128MB RAM cost around £125-plus VAT back then); and a processor running at a speed of possibly less than 100MHz (or, at best, only a few 100MHz). It would have cost two arms and a leg and been highly unstable and barely usable.
The magazine went monthly at a most auspicious time and did make (I'd like to think) a valuable contribution to letting people achieve that aim, as did the magazine's forums (more accurately, the people who appeared out of the ether to give freely of their knowledge and wisdom - and, a good many of us know who those people are and just how much of a contribution they made, which was far more than I ever did, on the forums, at least).
However, advances in hardware and software played a huge part as well.
I spent eight years or so of my life at CV and by the time the magazine was closed, it was possible to carry out basic video editing on virtually any Windows or Apple PC bought off the shelf.
Today (and the mag closed over seven years ago!), what people need and want to do in terms of video editing are very different from back then.
Further, I no longer have any professional involvement in the field nor any hands on dealings with camcorders or video-editing hardware or software (apart from for my own very minor personal uses).
In effect, I'm completely out of touch and not in any kind of position to play an active part.
I'd like to think that it's understandable that, actually, in truth, I do care a good deal less than I used to do - I don't have the same wide-ranging (and up-to-date) knowledge that I used to have and my work, to which I am utterly dedicated, doesn't provide me with any relevant knowledge that would allow me to contribute effectively, nor the free time to do so.
All this said, it has never seriously been an aim to make money for myself from the forums (though soon after CV closed, I tried and failed to make a go of DVdoctor as an independent web site, with associated forums).
Apologies for blathering on so (and not actually doing what I said I'd do in my previous posting) but I've struggled and failed to properly read enough threads to get a good feel for what I should be saying.
What I think I can say with some confidence is that, if the forums are to move forward, rather than wither on the vine and die, two things are necessary:
1/ To come up with some relatively small source of income. This would allow the forums to be run on better servers and allow relatively small scale purchases of hardware and software purchases - possibly including forum software. It might also allow us to recompense the two people who've worked unpaid on the site (Martin and sleepytom) and maybe even the mods.
2/ Someone with the time, knowledge and inclination to devote themselves to the forums' preservation and upkeep - in a way that I am no longer able (or willing) to dedicate myself.
Over the years, Gary (harlequin) has, I think, been the person who has given most to the forums and, had he not step away, I reckon he'd be the most obvious person to be in charge - and still may be even despite that.
People's thoughts on my comments would, of course, be most welcome.
Cheers
Bob C
[Sorry, should also have said that, currently, it's Martin who foots the bill for the server hosting; before that it was Hexus.net; before that it was me (more accurately, me using money that John Ferrick had given me access to, to pay those bills); and first of all, it was Alan Solomon (remember Dr Solomon's anti virus?).]
June 24, 2012 - 22:52
#84
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Dugi, look at the man's posts - 8113, it speaks for itself, of course he bloody cares!
June 25, 2012 - 06:59
#85
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Hi Bob
Thanks for your very honest and diplomatic post
Computer Video magazine and the guys and gals on these forums taught me a lot about video editing and lots of other stuff.
Chirpy brought a lot of fun to the forum and the Tennis, Elbow game still plods along.
I am grateul for all the hard work Gary did to keep the flame burning when you had to earn a living (We miss him)
I'm grateful to Martin for picking up the hosting and saving all the old posts
I'm grateful to Tom for making the forum much more usable, it's not a million miles away from the old forum software now, except that if you save twice due to a percieved lack of response from the software and forum speed, you double post which also links the duplicate posts, making deleting/hiding/moving of the duplicates impossible. Tom deserves credit and our respect for what he's achieved under less than perfect conditions.
Alan, Mooblie, Paul and myself seem to be the active mods at the moment, always unpaid and I wouldn't want it any other way, we are here to help the best we can.
This forum (and others) have always been like a virtual pub you can pop into for a chat, advice, albeit with no beer, we have a range of members who can be diplomatic, to ones who post to get a reaction, I suppose we can all be miserable, personal, cheeky and HELPFUL A reflection of society
A reflection of society
I hope this forum continues and grows, I don't think it's possible to go back to the golden days of Computer Video Magazine, if the existing members can try to tolerate each others ocassional bad moods and forgive and forget I feel there's a future here.
Some members interests change and they move away from video, as in Bob's Russ Conway conversion, btw Bob is it Jools Holland, Jamie Cullum, Mrs Mills or Andre Previn that you are trying to emulate, Eric Morcambe (Who played all the notes, just not necessarily in the right order) and Les Dawson who always played the wrong notes are hard acts to follow
Good luck and thank you to the forum and all members past and present (I'll shut up now )
)
June 25, 2012 - 15:20
#86
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Quote:
I'm grateful to Tom for making the forum much more usable, it's not a million miles away from the old forum software now, except that if you save twice due to a percieved lack of response from the software and forum speed, you double post which also links the duplicate posts, making deleting/hiding/moving of the duplicates impossible. Tom deserves credit and our respect for what he's achieved under less than perfect conditions.
I am confident this bug is history now, Many thanks Tom, credit where credit is due
June 25, 2012 - 15:51
#87
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
bcrabtree wrote:
Ron,I appreciate your kind words but, although Dugi may not have stated his view in the most diplomatic of ways, he does have a valid point . . .People's thoughts on my comments would, of course, be most welcome.CheersBob C[Sorry, should also have said that, currently, it's Martin who foots the bill for the server hosting; before that it was Hexus.net; before that it was me (more accurately, me using money that John Ferrick had given me access to, to pay those bills); and first of all, it was Alan Solomon (remember Dr Solomon's anti virus?).]
Thanks for that Bob. Honest and no messing.
June 25, 2012 - 21:09
#88
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
" 1/ To come up with some relatively small source of income."
"2/ Someone with the time, knowledge and inclination to devote themselves to the forums' preservation and upkeep - in a way that I am no longer able (or willing) to dedicate myself."
#1. How do other websites overcome this problem? Advertising?
#2. I think that statement really helps me a lot in understanding what's going on here.
I came late to this website (and the internet) so my "golden time" was in another place. As a relative newbie I'm interested to know -
1.How the original Mods for this site were selected.(Probably a bit academic but still of interest)
2. Is - "Gary (harlequin) has, I think, been the person who has given most to the forums and, had he not step away, I reckon he'd be the most obvious person to be in charge - and still may be even despite that." the same "Gary (harlequin)" who tried to have sleepytom banned? The same sleepytom that you would like to recompense?
I look forward to the future of this site but, my goodness, it really does need some heads banging together to make it work properly.
Thank you for your post bcrabtree.
June 25, 2012 - 21:56
#89
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Check: Diplomatic head on
Check: Pinch of salt in pocket
Hi Dugi
I used to be an active member of this ere forum in the good old days, I've been away and have returned now and again.
I honestly can't remember how I was appointed as a mod, I've been a mod on various other forums since 1999 and done it because I enjoyed supporting the forums I moderated, I always tried to be fair, I can't say I've always succeeded 
I do know that when you have wise guys, spammers etc. posting rubbish or wisecracks you can become stressed and easily develop a ban first and ask questions later policy, sometimes good guys get caught in the crossfire and mistakes can made good, errors can often happen when you have your own paid job to do and forum to support, we aren't all perfect, I haven't met that person yet, unless you claim to be? It takes a good man to forgive and forget (No this isn't a sermon )
)
Tom has achieved wonders with the drupal forum software fixes, no one can deny that, however this forum existed before Tom became involved, it kept going when I was away and will continue in the future for the benefit of all members with goodwill.
I've had my head banged together in school for helping someone with a metal work project, I wasn't guilty of any crime and it only caused resentment, nowadays that teacher would have probaly been suspended.
Maybe my brain is too addled to answer your post adequtely, at least I tried, that must mean summat?
The internet is a big place and if you aren't happy with a forum there are plenty of other forums to visit, it doesn't mean you have to leave here for ever, also as Summer has arrived at last you may see less of me as there's a real world out there , I will still be keeping an eye on spammers and trying to encourage fair play + discourage personal attacks on fellow members. I may fail but I will continue to try and keep this forum good natured, as I believe the majority of members want.
, I will still be keeping an eye on spammers and trying to encourage fair play + discourage personal attacks on fellow members. I may fail but I will continue to try and keep this forum good natured, as I believe the majority of members want.
All the best
June 25, 2012 - 22:12
#90
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
woahh hang on a bit, Dugi
Gary Harlequin was as far as i'm aware acting in what he thought was the best interests of the forum. He was perhaps overly defensive and didn't see that I was trying to help solve the issues by a process of logging / reporting them (and eventually fixing many of them myself). I'd very much hope that he will return to the forum at some point and once again become an important person in its ongoing future.
(this kind of clash between well meaning moderators and users with a web developer background is not uncommon, i've seen it on several forums before though this was the first time i personally fell foul of it)
The main issues as far as I can see now are.
- Funding - securing the running costs of the forum into the future, preferably in a way which doesn't rely on an individual to be solely responsible for bearing the financial burden.
- Staffing - ensuring that there are a team of moderators and admins able to take care of the technical and spiritual needs of the forum.
- Transparency - ensuring that points 1 + 2 are done in a way which enables the general membership of the forum to understand what has been done, by who and for what purpose.
What is most important is that we don't allow friction and differences of opinion about the way things could or should work to drive us apart.
I'm hoping that Bob might have some more to contribute towards some of these ideas and questions about the future. It is clear that the forum is in a transitional state, and I hope its future can be secured for another 15 years.
June 26, 2012 - 07:01
#91
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Is it not possible to have a small annual membership fee and run the forum as you would a club and committee ? I would not wish to deter questions from the inquisitive and so maybe there could be a "newbie, ask your questions here" (sub division) ? Be allowed to post a certain amount of questions and then join. I would suppose that it would extra work as a chairman secretary & a treasurer would have to be the minimum in officers. If that is unworkable, then perhaps proportionate voluntary contributions to the cost of maintaining the site ,pass the hat round.
I recognise and really do appreciate all the hard work put in by others , all the questions I had answered and even the calm way my tanty was handled by Bob C.
I am not so sure of a "review my work" section. I think that inviting bricks or bouquets is a way to go. What may seem a bit avante garde is frowned on appluaded now ( and let`s face it , it is purely subjective ) may change.
June 26, 2012 - 08:25
#92
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Good morning Tom
I sent you a PM, if you haven't noticed it maybe we need a more in your face notification as they get lost down the left hand side
If you've read my PM, so be it
Best
Thanks
June 26, 2012 - 09:40
#93
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
The original Moderators were appointed by Bob Crabtree, all those years ago. I joined this forum in May 1999 after discovering that Computer Video mag was run by someone who cared about and understood video and computing. I read reviews and then bought a camera and editing software, all on Bob's advice. As I was still working for the BBC at the time, I took the trouble to conceal that fact but had permission to post about the science, which I'm still doing. Bob must have noticed this and I 'became aware' that my status had changed to that of Moderator. Bob didn't ask me, I didn't ask him, it just happened.
Gary's presence was due to the job he then had (still has, I hope), of running a University software system which covered all bases. His spread of knowledge was/is vast, and I suspect that's what Bob noticed.
Over the years, more have joined in, but all have had Bob's seal of approval. And that's the way I like it.
June 26, 2012 - 09:54
#94
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
I'm also into classic motorbikes and some of the forums have a "donate" button.
I have no idea of the costs of running a forum, but on the bike ones, some are hung off somebody's business system, others seem to use adverts that you can bypass for a fee.
Sometimes stuff appears in the classified that's surplus to requirements and the poster asks for a donation to the forum, rather than cash.
I think the forum's kind of lost impetus since the crash but we went through the "big crash" and came out of it ok.
I'd slip the forum a few quid via a pay pay button or something.
June 26, 2012 - 12:04
#95
Re: The Fat Lady is Singing...
Ditto Repeato :)