Hi All
I spent most of lunchtime downloading the 9.13MB installer!
It says on the website that it installs a decoder that will allow Windows Media Player to play MPEG2. I am quite happy with my PowerDVD XP v4.
I did e-mail MainConcept to ask about compatibilty issues and such like but thought I would post here for other forum members to comment and possibly if Mark Bailey is "watching" from MainConcept USA for his advice etc.
Oh, has anyone tried it yet and does do "near real time" as suggested with a fast P4 - which I now have.
On reading this, I downloaded the demo to have a quick play. And did manage to crash it straight away (loading a divx file! - not suprised by that!)
It encodes with a watermark in the corner, which appears to be the only disabling feature.
Im using a P450 atm for my internet access, and used this for the demo. Took 40 seconds to do a 12 second clip. Sounds achievable for realtime on a decent machine! The encoding looked ok. Didnt see any options for multi-pass encoding.
Should prove popular with those using Premier and who cannot be bothered with framserving. I can certainly see I will be tempted to use it!
Have fun 
Les
Hi Les
What encoding did you try?
VCD, SVCD, DVD ?
How do you think they compare to the likes of TMPEGenc?
Think I will have to install and have a play, my main concern was whether like some software it makes too many irreversible changes that an uninstaller does not know how to cope with! But then again it may be just the encoder I am looking for 
PS I am using MSP6.51a
PPS I got this reply from MainConcept - I read this as do not worry!!
Hello,
there should be no problem with other applications. We have tested this
with lots of systems. MPEG Decoders have a priority. We do load our
codec, to be sure to use our codec. MPEG-I of Microsoft has the highest
priority. So in MediaPlayer you will see the MPEG I videos with that
codec. We do not delete other MPEG II Decoders. We do install our codec
with a priority. If you delete our software, you will use the old MPEG
Codec with the highest priority.
Regards,
Patrick Kuckertz
[This message has been edited by Searcher22 (edited 21 August 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Searcher22 (edited 21 August 2002).]
It was DVD encoding.
To be honest, it was too short a clip to be able to really notice anything, and to be fair, the real test would be to burn to DVD and test on a TV screen. Not going to do that with a logo though! And dont have Prem 6.5 anyway, so for the time being is frameserving only!
As mentioned, I think CCE will be a better encoder - and certainly has more options available, though what they do in reality is another thing
Les
Having used the "proffessional" version of TMPGEnc to encode a project of about 1.5 hrs. duration, made up of several files and endured the time taken to do the encoding, also small glitches where the files join, I thought (taking account of the possitive comments on this message board)that the Main Concept MPEG encoder would be OK and subsequently bought the CD version at great cost!
Having tried it I must say I'm very dissapointed with the quality of the result.
True, it works quickly and the joins in the files don't show, but the quality is worse than I can achieve recording onto VHS.
I used the suggested DVD template which, as far as I can see, is the same as I used in TMPGEnc (VBR 6000 - av. 4200 etc) except I can't see any option for Two pass VBR.
Any comments/advice please? Am I missing something?.
Hi
I have been playing around with both TMPGEnc and the Mainconcept. One I have noticed is that TMPGEnc loses detail in dark areas of footage, and becomes much more contrasted, this is without any filters set at all. Of course losing detail in the shadows and dark areas makes it easier to encode.
The Mainconcept seems to show no more artefacting than TMPGEnc, being slightly better if anything. Note that while I have encoded both with the same Max/average rates usng both, the Mainconcept produces a smaller file and watching the datarate it averages less than TMPGEnc.
I tested encoding VHS material which was quite noisy, and the MainConcept produced what looked like a worse video, however on looking at it and comparing it to TMPGEnc offering the Mainconcept produce video faithfull to the original, noise and all. TMPGEnc lost a lot of this noise along with details in shadow and dark areas which the Mainconcept kept faithful to the original.
Also TMPGEnc datarate is rather eratic, and watching it on a DVD Player display the datarate can fall to nothing for a second (even though padding is on) and then the next shoot up off the scale well beyond the maximum asked of it. The Mainconcept encoding shows a much more controlled bitrate similar to a compressed DVD.
I tried Max 9400, Average 8000 and the 5000 with average 4000 on both and authored to the same DVD to skip between them. The only real difference is how TMPGenc clips the dark shadow areas, making a dark grey on black all black! Of course the Mainconcept is also very much faster, with an hour of video taking 65 hours with 2 pass VBR so 32 hours on single pass, with the Mainconcept processing the same thing in 2 hours!
To improve the quality go into advanced settings and change Intra DC Precision to 10 bit.
Regards
Philip
Hi joiner,
You should be getting significantly better quality than VHS, depending on the quality of the source material, of course. Can you describe the source footage?
Our encoder doesn't support multipass encoding, but you don't necessarily need it. We use a look-ahead mechanism that achieves basically the same quality benefit as multipass encoding, but without the speed loss.
We do see the advantage of multipass for bitrate budgeting, and we will implement it in a future release -- no timeframe established yet though.
Mark Bailey
MainConcept
Hi
The material I was encoding was from VHS, an old tape converted to DV that was quite noisy. The Mainconcept codec did a better job in producing an MPEG stream with all the original noise of the VHS video intact. TMPGEnc seemed to remove a lot of the noise, and flattened shadow areas, even though all filters were off on TMPGEnc. Subjectively the Mainconcept codec looks a lot worse first off compared to the TMPGEnc, but this was only because it preserved the analogue noise from the original VHS source, and considering that it had this extra overhead to encode had no more artefacts than TMPGEnc, plus the Mainconcept produced a smaller file. After watching the Mainconcept encoded video then watching it again with the TMPGEnc footage, I found TMPGEnc to be rather flat with most shadow detail now lost to black.
What would be good is some information to how best to set up the Mainconcept for "Quality" rather than "Speed". I would imagine at the moment the default settings are a trade-off between speed and quality, but some of us, especially those used to waiting 40 hours plus for TMPGEnc would be quite willing to have a slower Mainconcept encoder but knowing we are getting the best quality, and even then I suspect it will many times faster than TMPGEnc.
For example we have settings for:
Rate Control Mode, Quality Limit, Noise Sensitivity, Motion Search Mode but no advice in the help files as to the effects of these settings.
Today at some point I am going to have a go encoding some nice clean DV footage to see how that compares.
Regards
Philip
I would echo Philip's comments on the relative merits of TMPGEnc and Mainconcept, and would add that I think the motion handling of MC is better than TMPGEnc with difficult material.
As for best quality settings, set DC precision to 10 bits, try setting the 'I-frame' quantisation to 'linear' (it defaults to non-linear), and for VBR mode set the lower limit about 2Mb/s below the average and the upper limit about about 2Mb/s above the average bitrate setting.
These settings are what I use for the encoder in Vegas Video after much experimentation (I use 6-7Mb/s (average) VBR bitrate for DVD encoding).
One thing that would be good to have in the encoder is an option to apply adjustable noise filtering (something that good hardware encoders often have - and TMPGEnc). I know this would increase the encoding time but it would be useful sometimes - how about it Mainconcept?
Tony
> As for best quality settings,
....and set the 'Motion search mode' to maximum (15)
Tony
Hi Owlsroost,
I have always supported TMPGEnc but find the initial results from MainConcept very encouraging. One thing is the speed of encoding which on my setup is almost real time. Quality of MPEG1 seems to be very similar to that of TMPGEnc and I am sure that if I fully understood the settings I could get possibly better results. Unfortunately the Help file is very lacking in help when it comes to the various changes that can be done so I wander if anyone can make a list of what the important ones do and what they should be set at to produce the best results. I noted your comments about the DC precision but can find no reference to this in any of the settings so could you please explain what this is is and how to cahnge it.
Also if anyone from MainConcept is reading this can you please do something about the Help Files. Maybe you could give us the list of settings in a reply to this posting?
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 26 August 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 26 August 2002).]
From the main dialogue box, hit the 'Details' button, then hit the 'advanced' button. Select the 'Advanced video settings' tab (the 'Motion search mode' setting is here).
Then, in the 'Additional settings:' pane, expand the 'General' section, and you should see an 'Intra DC precision' entry. Select this and alter the setting using the 'value' box in the top right hand corner (2 = 10 bit). Note that for MPEG-1 you can only have 8 bit precision.
The I-frame 'quantisation scale type' setting is also to be found here.
The 'Intra DC precision' basically affects how accurately the overall brightness/colour of a macroblock is encoded (the picture is divided up into 16 x 16 pixel 'macroblocks' for MPEG encoding). Using more bits tends to reduce the 'blockiness' of the encoded picture, but this is encoder/bitrate dependant, so try it and see.
Tony
Cheers, Tony for the advice on the settings.
Just thought I'd mention again to those that have DVD Workshop that the advanced tab can be made visible by adding
[VIODRIVER]
Advance=1
to dvdws.ini.
The advanced settings are 'sticky' in DVD WS, but sadly not in MSPro6.5. However, the improved Mainconcept codec is apparently going to be added to MSPro in a further Power Patch update in the next few weeks, so maybe the advanced settings will be made available then.
Regards,
Nick.
Hi Owlsroost,
Thanks for the reply but unfortunately the boxes to change the value are greyed out in MPEG1. Is there a reason for this and how can I get round this?
I also am having trouble with the deinterlace which I presume should be "Use top field" if to be played back on a computer monitor. When I set this though there seems to be a loss in quality with more artifacts. Why should this be?
Also what is your feelings on this encoder compared to others?
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 27 August 2002).]
Hi Nick,
I Have been trying to change the settings using advanced in DVD Workshop but ech time it tells me that it is a non complient MPEG set up. Is there any way around this for I want to create MPEG1 files at between 1800-2000kbps?
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi Dave,
See what you mean!
You can change the bitrate but it won't let you save it as a MPEG-1 template!?
Maybe the answer is to encode with TMPGEnc and the burn with nero where you can turn off the compliance.
Regards,
Nick
> unfortunately the boxes to change the value are greyed out in MPEG1. Is there a reason for this
...because MPEG-1 only supports 8 bit DC-precision (and probably only linear quantisation - I can't remember) so you can't change these.
> Also what is your feelings on this encoder compared to others?
It's my favourite for MPEG-2 at DVD type bitrates, can't really comment on MPEG-1 since I rarely use it.
> I Have been trying to change the settings using advanced in DVD Workshop but ech time it tells me that it is a non complient MPEG set up. Is there any way around this for I want to create MPEG1 files at between 1800-2000kbps?
Don't forget DVD WS is a VCD/SVCD/DVD authoring tool, so it's view on compliance will be related to what's usuable on a disc - 1800-2000kbps MPEG-1 is way outside the VCD spec (1150kbps). The DVD spec allows for MPEG-1 video up to 1856kbps at 352 x 288 I think (but you need 48kHz audio for DVD instead of the 44.1 you use for VCD), but DVD WS might not support this - I've never tried it.
Tony
Interesting ProCoder user page http://www.geocities.com/faussie01au/procoder.html
Hi All
Catching up with this thread I started.
Is it fair to say that the new MC standalone encoder is worth a go for all formats - VCD, SVCD and DVD?
There has been a mixed bag of comments on the wwug MSP forum about how good and whether MC is worth the asking price?
I think I recall a post with BobC commenting that he uses various encoder depending on the final product required,so is it/will it be a case of needing both TMPEGenc 2.57 and MC and using the one to suite?
At this time I really would only like to "invest" in one or the other - but Oh! which one?
PS I have been experimenting with using the HuffYUV codec in my MSP project settings and then using TMPEGenc to make my VCD or SVCD files. So far I can not see any discernable advantage!
[This message has been edited by Searcher22 (edited 27 August 2002).]
Hi Mark (MainConcept)
Sorry for not replying sooner, but shortly after I posted my message the C: drive on my internet computer gave up the ghost.
The footage was shot on mini DV TRV 900 mounted on a tripod, captured via Raptor, edited on MSP 6.0 (Win 98SE hence multiple files), authored with Ulead Movie Factory, burned with Record Now Max, (tried both Disc Image and Data - no difference), played on Yelo 800 to 29 inch TV.
The result is that the colour is "splashed" around like VHS and the whole picture "ripples". I admit the first section was particularly bad, and this probably gave a bad first impression.
When I have the time I will re-encode this and take into account the helpfull tips given in the other messages - Thanks to everyone for those.
One other thing, when I click on help, nothing happens - this is on the Standalone CD version.
Hi All
I have given the MC encoder a quick run through as advised in the manual on the default settings for the VCD output.
I offer my thoughts and observations on this testing please bear in mind that I am not a professional user but a hobbyist who has been trying to learn how to make acceptable quality VCD and SVCDs. I considered the MC software to be in the budget I could justify the CCE is not a hobbyists product!!
The results are frankly disappointing when compared to TMPEGenc. MC is blocky
and unacceptable whereas the TMPEGenc though slightly softened is at least watchable. I tried an MSP rendered file using both the DV1 compressor and the HuffYUV as the encodable source.
My original source material is a capture from my Sony TRV120e Digital8 camcorder. I tried clips that had low motion i.e. minimal movement and some that had fast moving objects.
As reported further up the thread the MC has no Help included indeed clicking the "help button" does nothing and there is no .chm file present.
The manual should be available as separate download, one of the first parts is about installing the software. Well by the time you get to read the manual that is done and dusted.
I have since uninstalled this program and have noticed that the instructions relating to the uninstall say that it will ask if you want the Direct Show Filters left or not. In the case of my Windows 98se OS no such offering was made, so without a list of the names etc I can not readily tell what has been left behind. The manual has screenshots of a WindowsXP system. In addition the uninstall does leave a bit of debris - its installation folder and a .mes file.
I believe that for MC to ask $149 for this product is not right. At this price point they should include a very comprehensive help file at the very least.
I do not doubt that more acceptable VCD results can be achieved but more in-depth help is needed to tweak the settings to get this.
I am equally sure that most encoder makers are principally targeting the DVD authoring market but I for one have not yet invested in a DVD burner. Once I do, I am sure that the MC product would come into its own.
However, based on my limited tests I will probably spend my $48 on a more mature product (TMPEGenc) rather than $149 on a version 1.0 product which would make feel like a beta tester.
I hope that these comments are not taken as too critical and would over time welcome other users input/experience of this product because one day when I get my DVD burner it may yet offer something that TMPEGenc can not.
Hi all,
I am interested in the difference in results people are getting. My setup is W2K and all loaded fine (although I do agree that the help files are useless but then TMPGEnc don't seem to have help files on the free version) and worked perfectly. The quality of MPEG1 files are pretty close if not identical to TMPGEnc. The main thing I noticed was the speed of encoding which is much faster on my dual Pentium 650. I for one will continue working to see how good the results can really be especially bearing in mind that TMPGEnc can produce some awfull MPEG files if it is setup wrongly.
A last thought is that it would be good if Mark (from MainConcept) could get involved a little more in this discussion as I am sure that his imput could be valuable.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi
As mentioned in further down in this post I edited the dvdws.ini file and added the Advance=1 key to it, and now in Workshop I have access to the almost identical screen we see on the Mainconcepts standalone encoder. I wonder if this is the same engine in Workshop 1.2 as we have in the standalone package?
I have not yet tried encoding and authoring with it yet to see the quality differences, but will give it a go. Do not see the point in paying for the Mainconcept encoder if the same engine is in DVD Workshop already.
It was exciting to see someone from MainConcept here, as it felt then we could get some answers and go someway to making the encoder the better, but no further comments from them at this time I see.
The comments regarding the helpfiles, I totally agree, for the price they are asking this should have been finished and shipped with the product.
If you have Premiere 6.5 you get the Mainconcept encoder for $50.00 but in affect that is just buying you the GUI for standalone use as Premiere contains the same encoder engine anyway, which seems a bit harsh to charge $50 just for the option of running it standalone.
Would like to see version 1.1 with helpfiles, some simple templates for "Good quality slower encoding" down to "Average Quality faster encoding" and maybe the whole thing for $100.00, then I would really consider buying it.
Regards
Philip
Hi Philip,
As far as I know the latest incarnation of Mainconcept is already in DVD Workshop and will be added to MSPro6.5 in a 'few weeks'. So there should be no need to buy the standalone at all.
Now if only we knew what all those settings meant!
Regards,
Nick.
[This message has been edited by Nick Piercey (edited 28 August 2002).]
Hi Philip,
I'm still here. I would like to respond to one thing that you said:
>> If you have Premiere 6.5 you get the Mainconcept encoder for $50.00
>> but in affect that is just buying you the GUI for standalone use as
>> Premiere contains the same encoder engine anyway, which seems a bit harsh
>> to charge $50 just for the option of running it standalone.
Our intent was to do Premiere users a favor by offering the discount. We do understand that it's a similar product, thus users wouldn't want to pay full price for it. But we weren't trying to be harsh, we were trying to be nice.
The standalone encoder offers several additional features over the various integrated versions of our MPEG encoder:
1) The convenience of easy file conversion without having to open a video editing program.
2) The standalone will always include our latest, greatest technology. New versions of our SDK will be added to the standalone encoder immediately. But the integrated encoders may have older versions of our technology. When we provide our licensees with the latest SDK, it may take some time for them to QA it and incorporate it into their applications.
3) It includes controls for all parameters supported by our SDK. This applies to the Premiere version too (which also makes all controls available), but some other incarnations of the encoder don't offer all of them.
4) Batch encoding -- for many people, this alone is worth the price.
5) The MainConcept MPEG decoder, which enables Windows Media Player and other programs to play MPEG-2 files. The Premiere version also includes this.
6) The MainConcept DV decoder. The standalone MPEG Encoder contains an integrated component of our DV Codec which enables higher quality transcoding from DV to MPEG because files are read with our DV decoder instead of an inferior DV codec.
7) Support for transport streams -- for many people with specialized requirements, this feature alone is also worth the price.
The standalone MPEG Encoder took many, many hours to develop and QA. Development continues, and we also devote many hours to support (including monitoring these forums). In addition, we are required to pay MPEG-2 patent royalties on every non-demo copy of the standalone encoder, whether or not it is used on a system where an integrated version of our encoder is installed.
Giving the standalone encoder away certainly wouldn't make any sense for us.
Best Regards,
Mark
[This message has been edited by MainConcept (edited 30 August 2002).]
Hi Mark,
I notice you have not made a comment on the help files which seems to be the biggest criticism. Is there a reason for this lack of feedback?
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 30 August 2002).]
Hi Dave,
Sorry, sometimes I listen too quietly. I try not to post anything unless I really have something to say. For example, when a suggestion is made (like the help file issue) I usually discuss it with others in the company, then I say something in the forum if and when a decision is made on the issue. Maybe I should also let people know I'm listening, even in cases where there isn't action yet.
In this case, MainConcept has listened to the feedback and decided to expand the help files to cover all of the controls. It may take a little bit of time to implement, but it is in progress.
That was a tough decision, because many of the settings will only be needed by a tiny, tiny percentage of users -- and those users work in such specialized environments that they already know what those controls mean.
We were afraid that if we explained every control, we would be encouraging people to tweak things that, in most cases, should not be tweaked. We'll see what happens.
We will also make the manual available as a separate download, probably starting with the next revision of the manual.
Best Regards,
Mark
[This message has been edited by MainConcept (edited 30 August 2002).]
Mark,
Thanks for the reply. I am sure that many who have read this topic will be very encouraged by the fact that not only are you listening but also prepared to address some of the points made.
One last thing is something you may or may not be able to confirm is whether MS 6.5 will be changing to MainConcept. I have just upgraded from 6 and find that it still has the Ligos encoder which I have never been very happy with. Having been a beta tester for Ulead in the past I have always prefered it to Premiere but the encoder leaves a lot to be disired.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi Dave,
If you apply the 6.51a Power Patch to 6.5 you will be magically transported to the world of Mainconcept for all your mpeg needs!
Regards,
Nick.
[This message has been edited by Nick Piercey (edited 31 August 2002).]
Mark (Main Concept)
You said that one oif the advantages of the Stand Alone MPEG encoder is that it uses MC's DV decoder rather than inferior (MSDV??) ones. I currently use the MC DV codec with Premier and am waiting for my 6.5 upgrade to arrive. Will the inbuilt MPEG encoder use the MC DV codec if it is present or will it always use the MSDV one? In other words would we all get better quality from a separately exported AVI encoded sandalone or can we equal this quality by using the MC DV codec and the in built MC MPEG encoder? I would certainly like to get the best quality but want to encode from timeline without having to wait for a separate export to AVI (not to mention the disk space this 'wastes'
------------------
Good Luck
Cliff
CMac Video Wedding Videos in Northern Ireland.
Hi Mark (Mainconcept)
Like the others I welcome your on-going input and would like to comment in respect of your most recent posting.
As a hobbyist videographer I like to learn and I take your point that some settings would in the majority of situations never need to be changed. However, in common with many others I learn by trying and though you say that some settings should not be tweaked (pardon - then why have an adjustment available?) an explanation of what the effect is goes a long way to helping users appreciate your product.
Lastly, I come back to my earlier posting about the price which was echoed by some others. At $149, even in version 1 offering the product should be accompanied by a full and comprehensive help file. For I presume that you are intending it for all users from novice upwards and is not intended to just be a tool for the video technician who understands every nuance of the encoding "science".
I sincerely hope that the product has not been rushed to market in the interests of generating early revenue from the more technical users who would knock the bugs out of it for you! If my "cynical" comment wounds I do not intend it to. However, based on some of the more technically competent input here and on the wwug forum threads, some improvements are very much needed.
Many thanks for listening
Hi Nick,
Thanks for the info. I should have read you previous postings more carefully. I have now (I presume) Main Concept encoding with Media Studio and the results even without the advanced option are not too bad. I am going to do more tests today but assume that a lot of the items that can be altered in TMPGEnc (such as sharpness) can be done on the time line and then will take effect when you encode.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi Nick,
I have just found that with Media Studio if you look in msp.ini you can add advance=1 to [VIODRIVER] and it will then give you the advanced widow option for the encoder.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi Dave,
Yes you can make the "advance" button show up in MSPro 6.51a, but only the "video quality" slider is sticky. All other settings revert to their presets if you exit then enter "advance" again.
This is not the case in DVD Workshop where you can make encoding templates to you heart's content.
Terry at MURC (aka Dr Mordrid) posts here http://forums.matroxusers.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35640&highlight=6.51a
that an Mainconcept update is due for MSPro "soon".
Maybe in this future update some of the "advance" settings will become sticky.
Regards,
Nick
Hi Searcher22,
Regarding the help file and the advanced settings, that's a situation I don't think we can win -- no matter what we do.
Some of the advanced settings only need to be used by a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of users. You asked why these settings are included...it's because those users need them. The parameters aren't always documented because those users will know exactly what they are.
If we do describe every setting, we are then bombarding every user with explanations of things that most people won't need. This is a particularly sticky issue for novice users, who might be scared unnecessarily and think that they need to understand all of these parameters.
Some manual writers think that a manual should be a complete reference to every single detail of a program, whereas the most prevalent school of thought now seems to be that a manual should only contain information that will be relevant to most users.
But as I mentioned, we do listen and we are going to modify our position on this. We might separate the explanations in a way -- maybe an appendix -- that people realize these parameters aren't necessary for most users.
Thanks for your feedback. We are listening!
Mark
Mark,
I hear what you say about the settings but if we don't know what they do we will always be novices and maybe try changing items that really should not be changed in our quest for knowledge.
I in the past have spent hours on sites such as this trying to find out what effect settings have and often get no reply. If you look back on this thread you can see this has been happening with Mani Concept. I feel it will be much better for the people who have written the programme to advise.
So thanks for listening and taking note.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi Mark
Yes, the manufacturer of any product has to face the difficulty of who they are pitching their product at!
In the case of software that is targeted at a wide rnage of potential users this is at it's most difficult.
However, your suggestion about appendices is worth doing, as you suggest the "main" manual will deal with default and simple changes but the appendices could provide the sort of detail that the likes of myself and Dave Knowles are talking about.
I look forward to your further thoughts.
Hi Dave,
quote:Originally posted by Dave Knowles:
Mark,
I hear what you say about the settings but if we don't know what they do we will always be novices and maybe try changing items that really should not be changed in our quest for knowledge.
It's good to see MainConcept make so many of their parameters available for changing, but meaningful descriptions for some of the parameters require a deeper understanding of how MPEG works internally. Some parameters are likely to affect certain types of source video only and changing many parameters will have knock-on effects on others. I suspect that there's no shortcut to understanding these without reading the full MPEG specs; documents ISO11172 and ISO13818 from www.iso.ch if you're really interested
I think that it's analogous to the user manual you get with a car. The user manual will tell you how to operate the radio, basic driving controls, lights and wipers etc... There are also settings under the bonnet for changing air/fuel mixture, timings, etc... which in the right hands might enable you to get extra performance out of the car under certain circumstances. It's not expected that the standard user manual should cover this, but a trained mechanic might be able to take advantage of these extra settings.
I remember many moons ago programming for the Amiga and in their developer User Interface Guide they said "just because you can give a setting for a user to change doesn't mean that you should". I see where they're coming from, but I'd hate to see the MainConcept encoder "dumbed down" just to hide these advanced settings.
Best regards,
------------------
Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com
Hi Andy,
I think one of the things to take into consideration is that many people such as me are comparing this encoder with TMPGenc which has vast user control. This does not seem to be detrimental to its use by probably thousands of people. What has happened here is users have written help information but I still think that it would be better for that info to come from the people who designed the programme.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi Dave,
I understand what you're saying and I think it's all quite reasonable. I'm just questioning how realistic it is to give meaningful descriptions of some of the parameters without having to explain how MPEG encoding actually works.
For example, the motion estimation parameters require a certain knowledge of how motion is encoded in MPEG. I can't think of much more you can say in some cases than "Increasing Parameter XYZ can give better quality in areas of high motion, but may result in longer encoding times". Without knowing how the data is encoded in the file and the algorithms for determining motion (which can be encoder specific), the actual value of some of these parameters is pretty meaningless.
However, if you understand the MPEG spec then you may be able to make use of the parameters to get a better quality in some situations.
To use the analogy of the car again: if I want to increase the performance of my car I'll learn how the engine works first before fiddling with any of the settings under the bonnet.
Best regards,
------------------
Andy Dean, Pure Motion Ltd, www.puremotion.com
Hi Andy,
I won't go on too much but let me give you a couple of examples. In the advanced settings you have Motion Search Mode. It is adjustable but there is no explanation as to what it is and should it be set high, low or maybe in the centre. Now if I look at the detailed settings I have a choice of two settings for Deinterlacing either "none" or "Use Top Field". When I try "use Top Field" the quality seems to get worse even though I want my programme deinterlaced to run on a computer monitor. If only I had a small explanation of the choices I could probably work out which to use. All I get in the Help is:
"The other items in this window generally should not be changed unless you are familiar with them and have a reason to do so"
Anyway Mark has said they are looking at the help files so I hopefully will be a much happier person when this happens.
Finally a word to Main Concept I am getting great results from the encoder and canm visually see little difference between it and TMPGEnc other than the speed. It maybe the picture is slightly softer but it is hard to say for certain. Having tried most other encoders including Cleaner I think that you have a winner for quality.
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All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Dave,
I'm glad to hear that your results are good!
Thanks to everyone else for the input. Don't worry, we aren't planning on taking away any of the advanced controls!
Mark
Hi all,
Just to update those who don't know. I have just spoken to Ulead in the States who have told me to remove the patch for Media Studio 6.5 as it is causing lots of problems. My problem was trying to use the MS capture programme.
This mean you can't take advantage of Main Concept with MS for the time being.
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All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 04 September 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 04 September 2002).]
Hi Dave
When you say patch is the 6.51a update to get the MPEG.now encoder?
If so it look like I need to uninstall and re-install v6.5 from scratch as in "Add/Remove" all that is there is v.6.5
Unlike some software that lists any update/patch for uninstall.
Though since "updating" I not done new capture!
Hi
Version 1.1 Demo is now at MainConcept, good news is the instructions in the PDF give more information on things to adjust.
Bad news is it seems broken! Tried some DV AVI files that encoded fine on Version 1 no longer open correctly on 1.1, they are just corrupted in the preview and output. Go back to version 1 and all is fine again. Glad we get these things as demos before buying.
Anyone found the same?
Regards
Philip
Hi Philip
Interesting comments - looking at the MainConcept website there are some positive additions/changes to the program. Improving nicely?? If it works as it says on the tin!
Also, Hi Mark (MainConcept)
You said that you could understand the need to make a separate download of the manual. When?
Awaiting the further thoughts and experiences
Hi Searcher22 and everyone!
Yes, we have made quite a few enhancements. As you'll see from the speed test graphs on our site, the encoding is quite fast.
PhilipL, I'm not sure why you're having the trouble with some files. Can you e-mail me more information about them? If so, please send to:
As for posting the manual separately, I estimate that it will be done in the next 2-3 days (but don't quote me on that). :)
Mark
Hi Mark,
How are things going with Ulead or can't you comment on this? They seem to be in a complete mess with their patch. I have been told to remove it over the phone. I then had an e-mail from their tech support to say to change a file but they forgot to send the attachment. Finally I got from another tech support person an e-mail to say they had problems with the patch. So I am very confused. I wish they would read this forum and take note and possibly keep us informed as to what is happening.
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All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi
Not sure what information I can give. All I know is a DV AVI file (output from Premiere) encoded just fine with 1, but now while the software opens the file the preview is completely corrupt with the encoding being the same. Going back to 1 is fine, un-installing then installing 1.1 and the problem is back.
Also I have noticed that version 1 I get the watermark on all MPEGS I play in Media player and the properties show that the Mainconcept codec is being used, with version 1.1 the MPEG codec of yours doesn't seem to work as Media player defaults to my DVD player codec, so something different is happening between these two versions for me.
Regards
Philip
Hi
Well after messing around trying to get the demo V1.1 working, I have got somewhere. It would seem that large DV Avi files just will not open correctly, however smaller ones work fine, so this still needs fixing MainConcept and note that version 1.0 worked fine with the same large AVI file so you have broken something between builds.
Now another problem. Something is wrong with the DVD stream. Plays fine on the computer, but pop it onto a DVD and we get blocky drop outs. This is not a media problem as tried different types and always get the drop outs in exactly the same places, so something is definitely wrong in the encoded DVD stream! Tried re-encoding at a much lower bit rate in case we were going too fast so tried 6000 avg, and 8000 max. Even with the DVD datarate display showing 6Mbits/sec the dropouts are still there with the drop outs in similar places again.
The same footage was tested out on Version 1.0 and this worked without problems even pushed to 9600 datarate.
I am encoding with the sliders pushed all the way to the right for slowest encoding/better quality, and the only other thing changed is the Intra DC Precision changed to 10bit.
Any ideas?
Version 1.1 has better quality controls but has been plagued with problems for me, just glad I haven’t paid for it and that a demo is downloadable.
Regards
Philip
Hi
Okay just to follow up on my previous posts here is what I have found with the 1.1 demo, and as you can also enter a serial number and have the full version from the same install watch out for these problems:
First off, the Media player filters are not installed correctly so Windows Media player will not use the Mainconcept codecs for DVD play back, (it did on version 1.0), which probably is a good thing with the demo as it just sticks a logo on it, and could be intentional they are not installed completely on the demo version. If you want to test them out you need to do find the .ax files in the Mainconcept folder and register them using regsvr32.
For example: regsvr32 "C:\program files\MainConcept\MPEG Encoder\mcspmpeg.ax"
If you find large DV avi files will not open (they are corrupt in the preview window) fire up registry editor (regedit) and go to:
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Mainconcept\MCMPEGenc and double click the entry for AVI Import and change this to 0 (zero).
The corruption and blocking I posted about appears to be caused by the Search Range setting under Details. When moved all the way to the right (maximum setting) the video on a DVD player shows blocking and dropouts intermittently through out. Using a setting of 25 (about 3/4 way along and seems to be the default) solved this problem completely.
Still some work to be done MainConcept.
Regards
Philip
[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 14 September 2002).]
Philip,
After all this are the results worth the effort or is it just a challenge to get it to work?
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All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi
Good question. Well the results are good, and considering an hours worth of DV Video compresses down in 2-3 hours compared to 40-60 hours in TMPGEnc, for all the messing around I am probably still up on time The problems have only been introduced on Version 1.1.
I have had similar issues with TMPGEnc that has meant some messing around to get various versions to work.
I still have the demo version MainConcept and been using it to play with to check the results, so will wait for the next version to see if these issues have been resolved before going for a purchase!
Regards
Philip
Philip,
I too feel that it is worth the effort but am having a lot of problems with verticals during pans on MPEG 1 files. They have a lot of shimmering on the edges (unlike TMPGEnc) and I am unable to discover what to alter to reduce this. The horizontals are fine. If I could improve this my feeling is the encoder would be as good as TMPGEnc.
An interesting fact I learned the other day is the Main Concept encoder with Uleads MS is an old version.
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All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
I just wanted to let you know that we are listening.
One point of interest...there is a reason that there was a change in the way AVIs are imported. There was an issue with DirectShow which caused incompatibilities and other problems with certain files, so we wrote an additional import module of our own to handle these files. DirectShow is used where appropriate, or our module takes over in place of DS when appropriate.
We do respond to any reports of issues.
Mark
Hi
quote:One point of interest...there is a reason that there was a change in the way AVIs are imported. There was an issue with DirectShow which caused incompatibilities and other problems with certain files, so we wrote an additional import module of our own to handle these files. DirectShow is used where appropriate, or our module takes over in place of DS when appropriate
Thanks for the information and posting here. It appears that DirectShow is not being enabled where your own routine cannot handle the file. Large AVIs fail to open with your AVI code, however using the workaround they open fine with DirectShow. I am not the only person who has had this issue, and I signed up to your own forum to help someone out with the same problem. While it is commendable to fix problems with troublesome files by adding additional code, I am sure you will agree it is counterproductive that what did work fine then becomes broken
Regards
Philip
Hi Philip,
When large AVIs fail to open, how long are you allowing for the process to happen?
Some large files can take a bit to be processed because our import module is doing a thorough job. For example, in at least one case the DirectShow importer was discarding color data, whereas our importer is preserving it.
Mark
Hi
The program opens correctly. When I view the preview window the video is corrupt, mainly green with some digital noise at the bottom. If I encode it I get the same on output. Smaller AVIs open fine, and these are all exported from Premiere 6.
This corruption is due to your AVI unable to handle file sizes over 4Gbyte. You should be able to replicate at your end, just open a large >10 Gbyte DV AVI exported from Premiere. If it works I would suggest you have additional filters working for you that some of us do not have on our machines.
I tested the encoder by installing it onto a clean laptop (Windows 2000 never used for video editing or DVD Playback) in case I had conflicting filters/codecs, but it did exactly the same thing.
Regards
Philip
Thanks Philip,
That information is helpful.
Mark
I should just note that I had the same problem as Philip. I have not checked in here in a while, but I got the 1.1 version and never got it to work without the green. I probably did not try any files that were small enough to load.
Hi,
Has anyone heard anything more about Ulead and Main Concept. My last information was not to bother with it at present. This was from them. At present I am not very happy as I paid for the upgrade to 6.5 so that I could have this encoder and all I got was problems.
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All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
FYI-
I spent a long time on the phone with Ulead tech support last week.
They professed to know *nothing* about any problems with the 6.51a Power Patch, and told me that any problems were straightened out before the patch was issued.
I spoke with "Ronald" who is, I think, the manager of the tech support department for MSP (which consists of four people).
Not that I believe them, but I thought it was worth noting their current position on this problem.
Well you have certainly been told a different story to me. I was told that there were lots of problems with the Main concept encoder so revert to MS 6.0. The problems as I reported was in the capture side. I have also been told by Main Concept that the version of the encoder Ulead are using is an old version. Who knows all I know is it would not work for me.
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All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk