My 890

Hi

I would like to point out that quality of recordable DVD is very subjective!

I personally notice the difference between DV Video and the highest quality DVD setting (1 hour) and this is using a Pioneer 7000 that gives comparable results. So dropping down to sub DVD resolution is certainly very noticeable.

The 2.5 hour setting on the Philips is unlikely to even be full DVD Resolution but more likely half DVD, so if you really feel the quality is the same then great, but for most people the differences will be very noticeable. It certainly will not equal a commercial DVD that in most cases are on dual layer discs and will have twice the data-rate and full DVD resolution. This is not to say the quality is bad, but certainly not equal to the source or a commercial pressing that would have been produced on equipment costing tens of thousands of pounds!

I have known people be perfectly happy watching a TV that has such a poor signal that it fades from colour to b&w and they have been content with that! Remember that we now have high-resolution DVD-Audio, but people seem more content in cramming several hours into 64Mbyte MP3 players and will listen to sound like it comes through a telephone for many hours a day and be overjoyed! To me this music is physically painful to listen to. Your idea of quality and someone else’s can be worlds apart.

It is great to see someone really happy with the quality of recordable DVD, certainly at the more extended recording times which typically means a much lower data-rate and resolution than commercial discs, but a lot of people are not all that impressed.

Just trying to point out that these things are very subjective, and what is good for you may be poor for someone else. Remain happy with your purchase and enjoy your recordings.

I would advise “images” to seek a demonstration at the very least. Problems with capture on the Philips machines have been well publicised and one users success does not cancel out these reports or make them invalid.

Regards

Philip

[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 09 December 2002).]

Philip,

You say, "and this is using a Pioneer 7000 that most still agree gives the best results."

This is not an opinion that we at CV would share.

Who are these "most[people]" and where are they saying it?

Bob C

[This message has been edited by bcrabtree (edited 08 December 2002).]

Hi

Various reviews have rated the Pioneer 7000 above other DVD recorders, which I could find URL’s for if it was really relevant to this thread, I am sure it has lost out in similar reviews to other DVD Recorders as well. However those that have used and compared the Pioneer 7000 to other DVD recorders all seem to agree it gives the best results in terms of capture and encoding and it doesn’t require an external time-base corrector or other filters to do this! A search on Google Newsgroups will surely find these threads and remarks.

If it is not held in such high regard by CV then so be it, that isn't important here. You are missing the point of my post. Would you agree or disagree that any DVD recorder at the 2.5 hour setting rate would equal a DV source or that of a commercial DVD? My point is that the post on quality of DVD recording was all-subjective. While it is great to see someone so happy, I was keeping this in perspective for others that maybe lurking. DVD Recording on set-top recorders does not equal that of commercial DVDs or DV Video, certainly not at extended 2 hour plus rates, that fact is well known to which you have not commented.

I really do not want to turn this post into my DVD recorder is better than yours type of thing as that was not the nature of my post, or my intention, or in keeping with the topic of this thread.

Regards

Philip

[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 08 December 2002).]

PhilipL,
Firstly I`m going to agree on two points,1. quality or peoples perception of quality is very subjective 2. your right in saying just because I don`t have a problem with firewire connectivity it doesn`t mean no-one else will, however, let me state for the record I am very fussy when it comes to picture quality, and I seek results to be similar or the same as a commercially purchsed DVD.

As for quality settings, the SP+ mode (giving about two and half hrs record time), is full DVD capture, and not half as you allude too. In my first post,I said most people would not tell the difference, providing that is, the original source material was good quality to begin with, I still stand by that!

I too would advise anyone seeking to purchase a machine costing so much money to do their homework, and if that means going to see a demo so be it.

You also point out that Pioneer according to most, give the best results, in what area. I suggest to take a look at the link below and judge quality overall.

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/video/comparison.html

Hi

Of course the very unbiased, non promoting +RW format hosting site of dvdplusrw.org ;) What else are they going to say other than how brilliant +RW is? Giving me that link is like handing me a Philips catalogue, or point me directly to a Philips URL

I had read all about +RW way before deciding on the Pioneer 7000! It is that site that made me realise a lot of stuff about +RW was nothing more than a marketing exercise by Philips and co. You will also have been in the forums and seen just how many people have the same issues and problems with the set-top recorders with no support from Philips. I sincerely hope you will not have any of these issues.

Thanks for realising the point I was trying to make in my original post.

Regards

Philip

PhilipL,

Most, if not all the reviews/reports I have read from various forums/magazines all praise the Philips DVD recorder as being first class.

The site I pointed you to is not biased as you make out, it is stating facts.

It is understandable if you support the DVD-R/RW format you will take issue with anything published against it, or reviews promoting/favouring one of the other formats as better.

Betamax was better than VHS, but look at which one won.

I personally have no interest in defending either format, I have made my choice and are extremely pleased with it.

Whatever any of us buy these days, some thing newer and better will be just waiting around the corner, so let us all enjoy what you have for now.

a Pioneer 7000 that most still agree gives the best results.
--------------------------------------------

I have also got to take issue about the above comment, And I dont own any dvd recorder.

I would say I,m a very heavy internet user (forums) and also buy stacks of magazines -- and have done so for years

and the general opinion is that the new Philips recorders are been raved about everywhere including most importantly by the guys in the street, such as SM1 on this very forum

and you dont have to look very far for the infectious enthusiasm for the Philips by other users.

These petty debates about which is best are pointless

as an example I own a 42" Panasonic Plasma and every day some guy will come on to forum saying my Plasma's better than yours

So please lets not go down that avenue

at the end of the day both recorders are fine machines, and would glady own either of em

Hopefully, people will realise that my reason for asking the question in the first place was because I want the information on these boards to be accurate.

In my view, the comment, "and this is using a Pioneer 7000 that most still agree gives the best results." is NOT accurate.

Even after there have been further postings from PhilipL, that claim has still not been substantiated. Until it is, I would advise people to disregard it.

Bob C (who is not looking for a fight and who owns no DVD set-top burner, and isn't interested in format-wars of any kind - only in accuracy)

Very interesting comment buried in the DVDPLUSRW Comparisons writeup
> Only DVD+RW offers the unique possibility to edit recordings made with a DVD+RW video recorder on a PC
directly on that same disc without the need of re-writing its entire contents. If you have a DVD+RW drive in your
PC, and a software package on the PC conforms to the DVD+VR format, you can for example change the look of
the menu screens that are created by the recorder on the disc into something that completely suites your taste.<

From a 'selling to the customer' point of view, the Philips menu screen cannot compete with the menus etc of a DVD made on a PC.

From a production point of view, however, the Philips wins hands down when it comes to getting from the timeline to a playable disc in the quickest time.

Is there anyone out there with a Philips 890 AND a DVD+RW PC burner who can tell us what changes they can achieve by tweaking an 890 disc on a burner?

Ray Liffen

[This message has been edited by RayL (edited 09 December 2002).]

Dear SM1,

I am very pleased that you are happy with your purchase...

IMHO i will wait a while, (not like me to say that one).

Now the Sony internal/external +/- drives are on the market, and NEC are following (albeit with delayed launch),
Without a doubt it will not be long before the first +/- set top Player/Writer will become available...

Now +/- plus DVD-Ram, that would be worth taking a long hard look at.

Kind regards, and enjoy your fine purchase.

[This message has been edited by Stuart B-M (edited 09 December 2002).]

I`ve lost the plot. Those on this forum including myself who have bought the 890 are mega pleased with it. Reviews in magazines like CV rate it highly.If people want to pay megabucks to attain near perfection so be it.
P.S. I also have an Aiwa MP3 CD player in the car.It actually sound OK. and as good as it`s minidsisk predecessor ( until I was relieved of it by some **%"!!

Hi,

When the Lord made standards he made plenty of them.

-----------------------------------------

Quote

Betamax was better than VHS, but look at which one won.

----------------------------------------

It may be ture VHS won and if so, was it because you could hire more Hollywood titles on VHS than on Betamax, or just that more manafacturers bought into to it.

So, which format will win the standards war and why.

Or, will we all have to wait and see, live a little longer.

Jim Bird.

quote:Even after there have been further postings from PhilipL, that claim has still not been substantiated. Until it is, I would advise people to disregard it.

Well why not post some links where the Pioneer 7000 and Philips machines have been reviewed in a separate thread and let this one die or get back on track.

Problems with analogue capture are well documented by users of Philips machines, you know this as will anyone else who visits the forum at dvdplusrw.org. They range from audio and video dropouts to scenes suddenly recording white or overly bright and require the machine to be paused and recording commenced again, of course this ruins a +R disc. Time-base correctors have been bought by many, not always resolving these issues. I suspect when they work the quality of picture is comparable to any other DVD recorder on the market for the majority of people. My point was that I was not using a bad DVD recorder to account for my remarks that these machines are not DVD quality.

You have not answered my questions relating to the important point of the post that may be of interest to others who expect to buy a DVD Recorder and that think they get 4 or 6 hours worth of DVD quality recording. Like you say, people should be aware of the facts.

Why Bob have you ignored the relevant part of thread and my questions and instead goad me to give evidence of a comment I made. So let me retract my comment about the Pioneer 7000, and lets now agree it is the worst DVD recorder on the market and them maybe we can get back to the point of where this thread was going.

The quality of recording on DVD set-top recorders at extended recording times.

Ignoring any reference to the Pioneer 7000, do you agree with my comments and if not why not. The quality of these recorders is something that would be useful for people to know, especially those thinking of purchase and keeps the thread in context.

Come on we are all adults and out of playground now J

Talk about hard work.

Regards

Philip

PhilipL,

The point of my original post was to state how good the Philips DVDR 890 was overall.

I feel Bob had a valid point when he asked you to evidence your claim. That to me, IS the relevant part of this thread.(after your statement).

There is a saying that goes "ninety percent of all statistics are made up on the spot".

Now Philip, please don`t think I`m having a pop at you, that`s not the point of these boards were all here to help each other make informed choices, and to that end I think that`s why Bob asked the question he did.

To finish this post, my original reply to Images was about firewire capture and not analogue. Also I was only speaking about the two and a half hour record time, which does give excellent results.

[This message has been edited by SM1 (edited 10 December 2002).]

[This message has been edited by SM1 (edited 10 December 2002).]

I've reviewed the Pioneer and Philips DVD recorders for CV, and I must disagree with the assumption that the 7000 is 'comparable' to the DVDR890.

Certainly in my tests, the Pioneer showed more obvious compression artefacts than the DVDR890- at setting that offer roughly the same recording duration.

All that said, both do a good job, and a lot depends on the nature of the original footage. I shoot a lot of concert footage (active camera, active subjects and crazy lighting), and this is immensely difficult to encode cleanly - particularly in real-time and on a consumer budget. On both machines, the quality of a 2hour recording of this material would be reasonable but far from perfect. More uniformly-lit, static footage would fare much better and have relatively few compression artefacts when compared to the concert video.

But I still rate the Philips deck over Pioneer's. I think there is a difference in image quality - albeit a marginal one. But what makes the Philips machine special is its ability to make menu-driven DVD recordings on write once discs as well as rewritable - and that that play in a larger number of set-top players than Pioneer's VR-format recordings. All this and a more friendly price tag too!

Pete

Hi,

I would like to know more about the compatibility compared to my 103. Will discs produced in the Phillips play in more stand alone machines than those produced in the 103 and if so why?

------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk

Mmmm, I've been prompted to dive in with a comment after re-reading SM1's first post.

It seems to me that all the recent enthusiasm for a product, in this case the Philips recorders, is a rare yet very welcome thing, irrespective of technical comparisons.

I'm sure that most people on these boards pick over the details of a new camera/camcorder purchase with a fine-tooth comb, and quite rightly too. There is usually a degree of choice over how to spend your money. For most people though buying into a relatively new technology such as dvd recording is going to be both exciting and a compromise. I'm sure excitement wins though - technology can be so mind-numbingly boring if it exists for its own sake but brilliant if it means you can suddenly do something you couldn't do before.

Technology is wonderful - but usually only when
1. YOU can afford it
2. it does something useful for YOU
3. when YOU can achieve that thing without too much pain

There would not be nearly as much discussion here and elsewhere about set-top dvd recorders if they were all still c.£1000. For most people that's the sort of budget reserved for a camera upgrade. Instead of wrestling with the compatibility of recordings from £200 PC-based recorders there's now an affordable way to 'get on with it', clearly with more than acceptable results.

I think there is an interesting parallel with PhilipL's comment about mp3 though. It may be a quality compromise but mp3 (and related methods) provides a practical and affordable solution which enables me to enjoy lots of music in a flexible and easy to access way...

Anyway, good luck to SM1 and PhilipL with your recordings!

Cheers
Paul

[This message has been edited by Paul Argyle (edited 10 December 2002).]

I think Paul has really hit the point and also his message leads me to one important corollary.

It is absolutely true that set top DVD recording is exciting, affordable and a genuine step forward from VHS, not just for the quality but also menus and so on.

It is the menus and the ability to edit a disc that will make the +RW format the winner in the set top arena. You can imagine the next generation of Philips recorders having a very nice menu system or even having a 1394, USB or better Bluetooth (so your PC can be in another room) connection to a PC so that you can edit the menus using some advanced software without ever taking the disc out of the set top recorder. Hmmm... This starts to sound nice!

Andrew

I'm reluctant to join in as things are getting heated but through this thread there is a question of wether it is possible to record two and a half hours onto a 4.7 DVD and reach the standard of a commercial DVD.
I would love to know how this is possible without the "Mine is better than yours" clouding the issue

BobA

As a prospective purchaser of an 890 I am very interested in whether it can cope with longer programmes containing some difficult material to encode.

At the start of this thread we were told that 2.5 hours is "like a commercially produced DVD", whereas Peter Wells said 2 hours with some difficult footage was "reasonable, but far from perfect".

I know it's impossible to accurately describe picture quality in words, but any comments from owners of an 890 re their ability to cope with 2hrs+ containing plenty of movement etc would be welcome (though I suspect the best answer is to find a way to try one before you buy!).

Paul D

Just completed a "dance" video and burnt direct from timeline to SP+ via firewire.
I cannot see any artefacts or judder with any of the fast moving dancers. Believe me I am looking hard.

quote:Originally posted by andrewh:

..........It is the menus and the ability to edit a disc that will make the +RW format the winner in the set top arena...........

Andrew

Not sure how the +RW format has any particular advantages in respect of "menus and the ability to edit a disc" compared to other recordable DVD formats???

I think the only heated debate, in the reecordable DVD format war, will be centred on compatability, cost, support and availability. What fun there is going to be!

quote:Originally posted by mooblie:
Not sure how the +RW format has any particular advantages in respect of "menus and the ability to edit a disc" compared to other recordable DVD formats???

I think the only heated debate, in the reecordable DVD format war, will be centred on compatability, cost, support and availability. What fun there is going to be!

The problem is that Pioneer's set-top DVD recorder doesn't give you menu-based discs when using write once DVD-R media. Video plays back from beginning to end in much the same way as a linear tape. It offers slightly better management of recordings made to DVD-RW, but these recordings are made in 'VR-format', which are incompatible with almost all set-top players (regardless of whether it will recognise DVD-RW media).

As I remember, Panasonic's deck has the same limitations as the Pioneer when recording to DVD-R (no menus when played back on a normal set-top player). It won't record to DVD-RW, and while it offers fantastic toys for DVD-RAM recording, there's no set-top players that I know of that will accept and play a DVD-RAM disc.

The Philips 890 allows you to create discs on DVD+R and DVD+RW which play back with menus on set top players (so long as they can recognise the media itself - which most can).

Cheers,

Pete

[This message has been edited by pcwells (edited 10 December 2002).]

Hi,

I have over Christmas been lent a brand new 890 from our local shop to try and am very impressed with the results. The tape which I transfered to DVD has a lot of thin lines and pans as it was a project on an oil refinery. The results showed no sign of artefacts and the pans were perfectly smooth. The picture quality was excellent.

I had previously made a DVD of this programme by using Ulead DVD Workshop and buring it on an A03. The results were certainly no better than the 890. One thing that the disc created on the 890 did though that the one created on my Pioneer didn't was to play on all my test DVD players. One player in particular (a Sharp DVD) that has always refused to play DVD's made on the Pioneer played the 890 disc without any problems.

I am sold on this machine because it means we can make DVD's for our clients at a reasonable cost and be sure that they will play on if not all machines certainly on most.

Out of interest has anyone found a machine that 890 discs will not play on I wander?

------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk

Just thought you may wish to know some facts about the Panasonic E20.

I use it to produce wedding dvds recorded via Firewire from a DHR 1000 digital video recorder on DVD-r. At SP quality, 2hours max, the quality is excellent when viewed on my 37 inch TV. Every bit as good as the digital original.

Furthermore, the E20 does also produce Chapter Points which are usable as a menu, when playing back DVD-r on set top boxes, lap tops etc.

Spike,

What is the compatability like with set top DVD's? This is the thing that worries me more than anything.

One thing I have found with the Phillips is that it that the DVD does not seem to run on my Sony Vio. It will run perfectly though on my Pioneer A03. Has anyone any thoughts on this?

------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk

[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 28 December 2002).]

Hi,
I have had no problems with DVD-r disks produced on the E20. I have played them on my Vaio, PS2, Bush 2002 and Panasonic CV52 DVD changer with no problem.

Furthermore, some of the new Panasonic DVD players will also play DVD Ram disks.

Not wishing to pour cold water on all this enthusiasm for the 890 but I have one and can clearly see mpeg artifacting when recording laserdisc via s-video on the SP setting.Whether the units copes better with clean souces such as DV via firwire or I have a faulty unit i have not had chance to test but I would advise any potential purchasers to try to get a demo first,(I wish i had...it`s a great VCR replacement but I would not attempt use the results commercially)

This I have noticed. A segment of a Theatre production I edited used stobe lighting this had some very unexpected results by blocking in the strobe lit area. It seems that the encoder could not keep up with the fast changing light conditions. It did not matter what recording mode was used. All the rest was perfect. I repeat no Artefacts noticible even in the fast moving dance scenes

Hi,

Having spent all day yesterday trying to make a DVD-R from a DVD produced on the loan 890 I eventually have for the time being given up. I stripped out the vob files but could find no advice on how to use thes to make a DVD.

One thing that was odd though is my Sony Vio with a Matshita UJDFA710 DVD/CD writer just shows a blank disc when I put a DVD produced on th 890 in it.

Has anyone got any thoughts on this?

Also does anyone know how to switch off the Macrovision on the 890 for this is not helping in making a DVD-R copy?

------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk

[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 30 December 2002).]

After reading your post I thought I would try.
I have copied a dvd+rw that was recorded in the Philips890 to a dvd-rw
I used first Nero 5.5.10.0
and then record now max 4.5

both were copied from the Dvd+rw to a Dvdr-rw using DVD copy
both the copied dvdr-rw disks played in the Sony dru500a that they were copied in.
they both also played ok in my Pioneer A03
they both played ok in my Cyberhome 512 dvd player

but both copies refused to play and showed as no disk in the Philips890.weired
As yet I have not been able to do a straight copy from the dvd+rw to another dvd+rw using either nero or record now.
any thoughts on this??

cheers de John

Hi after my last post I just finished copying a Dvd+rw to another dvd+rw that was written on my Philips890 I used nero 5.5.10 on my sony dru500a it didn't work yesterday but I guess switching the machine off cured whatever problem I had also switching from nero to record now didn't help. It plays ok in my cyberhome512 and the philips890.It won't play in my pioneer a03 guess that won't play +r +rw's

cheers de john

[This message has been edited by teabelly (edited 30 December 2002).]