http://www.avland.co.uk/dvd/dvdr.htm#dvdr
looks interesting.. anyone in the know got any prices? Was holding for the Panasonic HS2 price to come down, but....
Hi
Not able to get to avland.co.uk for the last couple of days, are they still around?
Pioneer have just made a press release (cdrinfo.co.uk) regarding these new models. They are due for release outside of Japan but no dates given. They're expecting to sell 700,000 in 12 months and have been finding it hard to keep up with demand just in Japan! So hope they are ramping up production considerably then, otherwise we will never see them.
According to the press release Pioneer are looking at reducing pricing by 20% to help get a greater market share. So prices are set to fall.
Regards
Philip
Just posted a reply.. but it didn't go through..
Avland worked first time just now. Seems to be back?
Looks like the E30 is being discontinued and the E40 to be introduced in February. I was holding back to see where the price would go on this or the HS2 (lovely!), but it looks like we've got a whole bundle to look at in a few weeks.
Maybe someone like Ian from Lynxdv.com has got some info? He normally knows what's going on.
Hi
Seems like the new Pioneers will not be around until Summer, at least in the US. Not sure if Europe/UK will get an earlier or later release.
Philips have new models out in April, one with an 8 hour recording mode (yuck!), I suspect trying to compete with extended recording modes of hard-drive/DVD Recorders with most unsuspecting buyings thinking 8 hours will be DVD quality as its a DVD isn't it? Digital doesn't always mean better.
News is at www.cdrinfo.com.
No Avland, still Page not found, must be my ISP will give them hell.
Regards
Philip
quote:Originally posted by CH3:
Just posted a reply.. but it didn't go through..Avland worked first time just now. Seems to be back?
Looks like the E30 is being discontinued and the E40 to be introduced in February. I was holding back to see where the price would go on this or the HS2 (lovely!), but it looks like we've got a whole bundle to look at in a few weeks.
Maybe someone like Ian from Lynxdv.com has got some info? He normally knows what's going on.
I'm in the dark as much as you are on this one 
HS2 is still around the £800 mark.
U mean Ian is human afterall?!
quote:Originally posted by KKw:
U mean Ian is human afterall?!
SUPER- Human 
The Sony Looks interesting, (vague details) but interesting... http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/rdrgx7/index.htm
Kind regards
http://www.avland.co.uk/ces2003/index.htm
some reports on the new recorders here. Big disappointment that the Pioneer version of the HS2 is pitched in the £800-£1000 area. £700 and I'm there.
Personally,
will be waiting to check out this one...
Hopefully the iLink Will be (In/Out) 
Kind regards.
[This message has been edited by Stuart B-M (edited 11 January 2003).]
Any reason why this Sony won't write to +R
This link www.avland.co.uk/sony/rdrgx7/index.htm
from one of the above posts shows it as just writing to +RW. Is that a mistake?
Dave
[This message has been edited by dhphy (edited 11 January 2003).]
Hi
It is unknown yet how the Sony deals with the different methods of recording to DVD-RW and +RW. Depending on the disc it may not have the same features. Will VR mode be used on +RW as an option, and will Philips method of writing DVD Video (no finalisation, some linear editing options) be allowed on DVD-RW? It is possible that +RW and DVD-RW will support the VR mode for normal use, with both DVD-RW and +RW supporting the DVD Video format as the Pioneers do now (i.e. no overwrite options and finalisation required before playback elsewhere).
Sony seemed to have said in a press release that +R is not supported due to time constraints. Well this doesn't seem correct as their dual writer supports +R and at faster writing speeds, why the problem in supporting x1 +R now? This machine was talked about in a press release 12 months ago and then they said it would not have +R support either. The Philips 1000 recorders were launched many months before +R but they could be successfully updated to write to +R, so why is Sony saying they haven't enough time to do it, considering they have had around a year to work at it? This doesn't ring true at all, and seems to be a smoke screen for some political reason for not supporting it at this time.
Some may see that Sony have designed the recorder to allow people to move from the +RW format to the official DVD formats. If this is how they consider the machine and the market they are targeting, it would make sense to not bother to support +R for writing. Those owners of +RW machines are encouraged to upgrade to the Sony machines and can still use their +RW media, but buy DVD-R and DVD-RW from then onwards.
Regards
Philip
Very interesting analysis Philip, thank you.
Dave
I think that Sony and all the rest of them are going to have to watch Philips carefully and maybe come in line with DVD+R for Philiups seems to be very agressive (for once) with their marketing.
I have been reading a lot about the 890 in magazines and it would appear that journalists are finding it hard to knock this machine especially when they look at the price.
To quote "Home Cinema Choice" this month Feb:
"The tussle for recordable disc dominance seems toi be swinging Philips' way, at least outside Japan. At a recent press event, the Dutch giant claimedf a massive 80% share of the fledling market in Europe, 60% in the US (a dramatic rise fot the brand) and around 40% in Asia (excluding Japan). In the PC arena, the company also claims significant progress, with leading PC brand Compaq recenctly switching sides to Philips' +RW format from -RW."
Steve May goes on to say:
"This is undoubtedly good news for the consumers looking to pick up a DVD recorder to replace their ageing VHS, but bad news for magazine commentators hoping to spew acres of column inches about the pros and cons of the various options (DVD+RW from Philips, DVD-RW from Pioneer and DVD-RAM from Panasonic)."
The article goes on about the compatibility question and reviews the 880 (at around £400)saying don't be fooled at the low price - this deck is a corker and this was before the 890 because they are giving the 1000 a good review at £1,000.
I think Sony and the rest can't afford to ignore +R and +RW for Philips for once seem to be going for it in a big way.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 12 January 2003).]
Hi
I agree Philips is using a lot of tricks to market its recorders. Time and time again compatibility is quoted as better than DVD-R as found by Intellikey Labs. This test was sponsored by an un-disclosed source (Philips?) with the pass criteria at "does the disc boot to the menu". The disc didn't have to play, just had to boot and it was given a pass. I have seen the report and the +R discs had many more problems actually playing. Put the pass criteria to "Does the discs play without major glitches" and both formats were very similar. In fact the results match those that Pioneer had done by Intellikey a few months earlier, obviously they were using a more realistic "does it play" as a benchmark to pass or fail.
Intellikey later played down the accuracy of DVD compatibility testing due to the embarrassment over the widely differing results and the obvious conclusion that a sponsoring customer can get the results they want if they pay enough! However this hasn't stopped Philips from quoting the results in various adds.
The likes of Panasonic, Pioneer etc just do not market as aggressively, they naively think the quality, brand reputation and technical features will sell the product without much advertising required.
In addition any reviews of the Philips machines never take into account users actual experiences. The dvdplusrw.org forum is full of complaints about the machines, echoing the same complaints made on the first model seen some 12 months ago. Those in the US have had to continually complain and flash to the latest firmware just to get the clock and timer to work correctly. Disc errors are common, with plenty of people complaining at around the 3-month mark this gets worse and commercial DVDs often stop playing. How many off these problems will grow exponentially as time progresses. How can a consumer electrical device that constantly requires bug fixes by new firmware, which often introduces other problems, be given such a high rating by reviewers? One wonders if it is a case of a Philips rep saying, “Give it a good review and you get to keep it†sort of thing.
Pioneer is just not competing at all with their format, as the only model they have is priced too high, although this may change during the next few months.
Personally I could not care if all I could buy was +RW recorders. However at the moment this would be a worse nightmare for me as they are not reliable and the format is backward compatible to the point of it becoming unfriendly and little better than VHS tape. When I watch a program and erase it, I want the space back. I do not want to be worrying about accidentally erasing something because I am trying to use up some free space at the front of the disc. I do not want to have to completely erase a disc in order to get contiguous recording time back. I want the disc to be able to cope with minor scratches and damage using defect management, and not spit it back at me or throw “Disc Errors†up because it isn’t unblemished. If this is all we can buy as a VCR replacement, then we haven't moved forward much have we?
Hopefully Sony will introduce DVD VR mode so these limitations are lifted on +RW as well as DVD-RW. For those that want compatibility they will then have the option to switch to the more restrictive DVD Video mode as used on the Philips. A choice of how we use these discs is better than being locked into something that may not be much good for some people and certainly not good for the majority of people that just use recorders for time-shifting.
It is a confusing mess at the moment, with a lot of people likely to bypass DVD completely and getting PVRs, these seem much more sensible and have a greater capacity at better quality, with no format war to discourage sales!
Regards
Philip
[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 12 January 2003).]
Well my exp-erience so far is that the 890 produces great quality DVD's from both off air programmes and from DVCAM via firewire. It also produces DVD's that seem to work on a machine that I have which would not play DVD-R disc.
The reports I have read so far make good reading with very little critisms so we shall see.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi
There is no doubt that when they work they will produce a good DVD video. It is the niggles that people find during long term use that I would never put up with but others seem to work around.
Hopefully Sony and other manufacturers will produce something more reliable for +RW.
Have you had it 3 months yet?
quote:The reports I have read so far make good reading with very little critisms so we shall see.
I have not just made this up about Philips reliability problems, see this threads as examples, there are many other similar stories:
10% of Owners wish they never bought a Philips machine
One of many threads that can be found with people posting of disc errors.
Regards
Philip
[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 12 January 2003).]
Hi PhilipL,
You really don't like the 890.
No I have had mine about a month so we shall have to see. I was interested to read the links you gave us especially the one that said 90.66% loved their Philips DVD+R also problems in some cases seemed to happen when the firmware was updated. I always believe in "if it ain't broke leave well alone". I spend a lot of time on the internet trying to help out people with software and sometimes hardware problems and so often it is a problem caused by medling in areas that they don't understand.
Discs I am sure are going to play a big part in compatibility becuase everone wants the cheapest and so often the cheapest are not the best. I have just been copying 1000 CD's for an overseas client and have found that out of cd's bought frome three suppliers only one worked although I was told they were all perfectly ok.
All I can say is I have read many reports of problems with all DVD writers (just look back in this forum for some) and I am sure there will be many with the Sony.
Therefore the choice is yours.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Why doesn't CV Magazine get a lab test of all the new and current models together in the next couple of months?
PhilipL
I was intrigued by your suggestion that the Philps Desktops probably get good reviews by allowing the reviewer to keep the machine if he reviews it favourably.
What reviewer would prejudice his integrity and possible future employment to keep a machine (worth 300 quid trade) which he has just found to be crap and therefor wouldn't want anyway.?
Your proposition doesn't stand up.
Hi
I am intrigued by the fact you appear to think that every review of every product is an honest appraisal and not influenced in anyway?
It was a tongue in cheek remark, however this DVD format thing is rather cut throat and I wouldn't put anything past any of the interested parties.
There are re-occurring threads all the time with new users having the same problems with their Philips machines. When you hear of someone on their 3rd, 4th or even 5th new machine and they all have the same problem, something isn't right is it? No reviewer has ever mentioned this to my knowledge even though the site is linked from Philips own information pages, so a little research into the product from a more thorough reviewer would have easily found the forum.
Lets hope Sony can provide something better for the +RW format on their new machine.
Regards
Philip
Its obvious PhilipL has a great disliking for the Philips dvd recorders
Philip you quote those threads about unhappy customers
for every 1 bad report I read, their are 10 fold by the amount of seemingly very happy Philips customers
I have a Pioneer A03 writer, and to be brutally honest, its the biggest piece of shite hardware --- that I have ever spent my money on, and if I was to start quoting the all the unhappy Pioneer owners, I would be still sat here next year copy & Pasting them into a thread, cos their are thousands of unhappy DVD-R format users
I have tried every firmware known to man, only tonight I brought home 25 Verbatim Discs and the bloody things wont write at 2x like they are supposed to
I have swapped channels/from master to slave/P10/UDMA basically tried everything, and its a joke having to try all this, just to get it to write in the correct fashion.
Yet Philips release a Recorder that seemingly works far better than any other product, yet all you do is slag it off in every post you make.
I find it dis-respectful of you -- when people spend nearly £500 on recorders and are very very happy with them, yet you are trying to give them the idea that they are buying the wrong product.. and its no good!!!
Can we keep the thread on topic please?
Anyone else seen further info on these interesting looking set top dvd recorders?
Hi
quote:I find it dis-respectful of you -- when people spend nearly £500 on recorders and are very very happy with them, yet you are trying to give them the idea that they are buying the wrong product.. and its no good!!!
Funny I have read posts of owners of said recorders saying just the same things about their Philips recorder purchase about Philips as a company.
So all those threads of people having the same problems over and over again, with Nill support from Philips and firmware updates that cause major hassles you believe are fussing over nothing, I guess they would call you dis-respectful. As for your problem with the Pioneer drive, I agree you shouldn't have those problems. Why try and get it to work when clearly it isn't going to, take it back and get a refund, you shouldn't have to put up with it. And I do not consider you dis-respectful for having a go at a product I own. Hearing about issues and problems, and good and bad news about products is what makes us better informed consumers and is a benefit of forums such as this. Someone is not dis-respectful for pointing out issues people are having with a product.
quote:Anyone else seen further info on these interesting looking set top dvd recorders?
At the moment we are in CES trade show mode. A lot of the press releases have flooded various websites are more spin than anything else. Actually getting the low down specs on the new products is hard to do. The press releases are largely about advertising and getting one up on the competition, and not about informing on the details.
Hopefully some more interesting information will come later.
Regards
Philip
Philip,
Do you own an 890, have you used one or is everything you write from internet postings?
Are you a dealer or someone like me who runs a well respected production company with international clients who require DVD's at an affordable price, which I can supply using equipment such as the Philips 890 because it does not take me hours to encode? I would also say that my clients keep coming back because they are very happy with what we produce.
If I do have problems with the machine I will contact Philips and work to find solutions and not be negative. This I have done with Ulead, Speed Razor, Fast (before they became Pinnacle) and Matchware to name a few.
The 890 in it's way is a breakthrough and probably does have it's problems although I have not found any yet. Some will like it some will not but please lets give it a chance and surely it is a good thing that a company such as Philips is trying to break the strangle hold that the Japanese have on the industry.
All I can say is good luck to them.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
[This message has been edited by Dave Knowles (edited 14 January 2003).]
quote:Originally posted by Dave Knowles:
Philip,Do you own an 890, have you used one or is everything you write from internet postings?
Are you a dealer or someone like me who runs a well respected production company with international clients who require DVD's at an affordable price, which I can supply using equipment such as the Philips 890 because it does not take me hours to encode? I would also say that my clients keep coming back because they are very happy with what we produce.
If I do have problems with the machine I will contact Philips and work to find solutions and not be negative. This I have done with Ulead, Speed Razor, Fast (before they became Pinnacle) and Matchware to name a few.
The 890 in it's way is a breakthrough and probably does have it's problems although I have not found any yet. Some will like it some will not but please lets give it a chance and surely it is a good thing that a company such as Philips is trying to break the strangle hold that the Japanese have on the industry.
All I can say is good luck to them.
Excellent post Dave Knowles, My sentiments entirely. I am more than happy with my Philips 890 and like someone posted earlier in this thread, I paid £440 for a piece of hardware that I am very happy with.
Please PhilipL. Take into consideration the thousands of Philips 890s that are all working perfect with no complaints from customers before you send them to the knackers yard..
Thank you for your comments. It is a shame that the string has gone this way but I see so often just destructive comments from PhilipL that I felt I had to say something.
Good luck with your 890 having just copied around two hours of VHS to DVD with mine the results seem better than the original VHS. I can only assume that there is some enhancing in the Philips machine.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
I have both the 890 & the 880. The 890 is working very well with no problems with Lynx +R printable.Or any other +R media. However, the 880 is going back as the disk error ratio is now too much no matter what media I use.
Hi Dave Knowles
I have owned a Philips 890 for just over a month now, and as I have said on earlier postings this machine is excellent.
A lot of the recordings I make are from the TV, (and some from camcorder footage), and as yet I have had no problems or complaints.
PhillipL must work for Pioneer, as all he seems to do, is not inform people into making balanced choices (as he claims), but takes every opportunity to put the Philips machines down. (Give the company a break).
I suspect there are many more people who own a Philips machine than it`s Pioneer/Panasonic counterparts, therefore it only goes to say there will be more published material reference people having problems in certain areas, this is normal in the world of manufacturing, name one product that has never had any problems.
Everyone has a choice, I choose the Philips 890, and have no regrets.
Nobody knows where, or even if the DVD format will be around in ten years time, so my suggestion to potential buyers of DVD machines would be this, if you have the money, don`t get hung up on which format is best, or which one will win the war, both Philips+RW and Pioneer-RW are good machines, each offer something different, go for what excites you, or suits your needs.
Happy Recordings.....
[This message has been edited by SM1 (edited 15 January 2003).]
PANASONIC DMR-E50 £399.95
PANASONIC DMR-E60 £529.95
according to avland.co.uk.
PhillipL,
Not in any way jumping to conclusions but it does make sense for you to say whether, in fact, you have any vested interest in the success of one product or another.
If you don't, then that particular idea can be put away; if you do then you MUST declare it.
Bob C
quote:Originally posted by PhilipL:
Some may see that Sony have designed the recorder to allow people to move from the +RW format to the official DVD formats. If this is how they consider the machine and the market they are targeting, it would make sense to not bother to support +R for writing. Those owners of +RW machines are encouraged to upgrade to the Sony machines and can still use their +RW media, but buy DVD-R and DVD-RW from then onwards.Regards
Philip
This idea seems far fetched at best. Sony are hardly likely to be the leaders in pushing consumers towards the so-called DVD standards. I am quite sure that Sony have more of the Patent Pie in +R than in -R.
I expect their efforts are to do exactly the opposite. They are the only serious + camper that has a major Japanese position and they would love to help to penetrate that Japanese market with the +R standard.
Let us never forget that this war is about only one thing: money and that almost all boils down to the patent pool, one that Sony and Philips have been milking for an age over CD but lost out heavily when the DVD Video standard was born. They would like to regain the upper ground in the recording war and are looking like they are slowly succeeding.
Andrew
Bob,
I was just about to ask the same of Philip L. However, in every fairness I should point out that I USED to work for one of the protaganists in this war (and it was not Pioneer). However, I would never slag off the efforts and success that Pioneer have had in the early days of DVD recording. The fact that they are still virtually on thier own with -R is a pity and I have never quite understood why.
For me the war does not need to end because we have a printed standard (DVD Video) and so different recording standards are not too important (It is completely different from the VHS, Beta wars since that defined pre-recorded as well as recording standards). The big advantage now is that the war helps to reduce prices while increasing compatibility. Nice for all of us. Fight on Philoneer!
Andrew
quote:Not in any way jumping to conclusions but it does make sense for you to say whether, in fact, you have any vested interest in the success of one product or another.
Not associated in anyway with Pioneer, the DVD Forum etc etc. I have followed these formats since the start and have learnt a lot on the way, and started out completely open minded about formats as had no prior knowledge of this industry split.
One thing I learnt long near the start was not to trust the marketing rubbish especially from the likes of dvdplusrw.org. For example the site tells us only +RW supports on disc editing as DVD-RW does not have lossless linking, so only buy +RW! Funny that you can do everything on DVD-RW the site proclaims you cannot. It is amazing how this rubbish finds its way into all sorts of publications about the formats as well, no doubt with reviewers and journalists given the link by Philips! Philips know of this site and are allow this rubbish to be promoted, so another good reason not to give them my money.
quote:I expect their efforts are to do exactly the opposite. They are the only serious + camper that has a major Japanese position and they would love to help to penetrate that Japanese market with the +R standard.
Their first press release about this recorder specifically stated Sony would likely release the recorder without any + support in Japan/Asia.
Sony are truly on the fence, and do not forget they will also have patents in DVD-RW and DVD-R. Philips is more dependant on +RW than Sony are from what I have gathered which is why you will not see Philips have dual format recorders out.
Sony are likely to gain from their on the fence stance, as not only will they receive some income form both formats from royalties, they are also selling shed loads of dual-format PC drives and likely set-top recorders as people buy them for some re-assurance in a confused market, and the BETA/VHS mentality. Sony have been very clever in all this really.
quote:Let us never forget that this war is about only one thing: money and that almost all boils down to the patent pool
Completely agree, which is why there is so much marketing rubbish about, all from the +RW side!
Now let me go back to editing the Philips VR format on my A04 and DVD-RW, incredible to watch seeing a certain website spends much of its space telling us it is impossible do. :)
Regards
Philip
Philip,
I think you give a little too much weight to dvdplurw.org. this is so obviously a biased and amateur site that not many people would take it too seriously in making a decision. You talk a lot about marketing and all that: remember vHS. Awful format, well marketed to the right people.
Philips is being smart. Pioneer is not. I am not arguing one standard over the other since they are, pretty nearly, equivalent. The issue is who gets the shelf space and the sales. He who gets that will be able to develop the system further and hence will win on both marketing and technical grounds.
Right now it looks like Pioneer is not doing a good job at least in Europe and the USA. Things might change and they need to if -R is going to win.
On the issue of Sony patents, what you say is, I am sure, partly true. However, I am quite certain that Sony would gain more from +R than -r in the long run. There is, however, a possibility that Sony does not care as they might well be in the lead on the next generation technology (often referred to as blue laser writers).
Andrew
Totally agree with all you have said Andrew, when I purchased my Philips 890 I wasn`t aware that the dvdplusrw.org site exisisted.
PhillipL seems to constantly refer to this site, then takes great pleasure in knocking it.
I hardly if ever, look at this site, and I believe those people looking at purchasing a Philips machine would not be too interesed either.
I think the site is for people who already own DVD+RW drives.
I was one of the first on this forum to purchase the 890. I cannot fault it. The only big let down is the media with relatively cheap Datawrite silver never missing a beat and the damned expensive Verbatim giving me grief. The durabilty and the useabilty of currently available +r media has yet to prove itself.
I also bought the 880 which the constant "Disk error" flags make the machine unusable therefore it`s gone back.
I also bought 3 panasonic e30`s in which I am well pleased It`s quite a happy machine and I particularly like the flexible record function.
To Conclude the 890 is a very good all rounder and I am very happy with it`s performance If someone asked me choose the best for me it would be this one.
Where has all the Datawrite +R media gone ?
No one seems to have any
Hi
Don't shoot the messenger:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7326
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/t/49204/ds.html
Regards
Philip
[This message has been edited by PhilipL (edited 22 January 2003).]
PhilipL
Your disliking of Philips products is bordering on Paranoia
the Inquirer link you post - is quoting a The Digital spy forum, and on that forum they cannot agree with themselves as to its merits
They have about as much credibilty as the Sunday sport newspaper.
I think that every-one realizes just how much you hate Philips
So Why dont you suggest that every-one who owns Philips --throw them away because PhilipL says that they are full of bugs
and you guys have all wasted their money, and it would be nice to see you posting a few positive comments in some of your replies - instead of endless retoric about this topic
if I owned the said recorder, the term "yours & up" would spring to mind
have a nice day
Isn`t it strange that once again PhilipL is pointing us towards links that, in turn, point towards dvdplusrw.org.
OK, so we've gathered there is a difference of opinion about the Philips. Done. Understand.
Anyone got any other opinions on the up and coming DVD/HDD recorders I originally posted about (before you all hijacked my thread!)?
I'm leaning towards the Panasonic HS2 because of the HDD, and I already have a DVD-R burner on my pc. Although the Pioneer boxes look interesting, but they aren't out until the summer.
I heard the HS2 was being replaced by the HS3 with a much bigger HDD - anyone else heard this?
And as for I-link out, not sure if that means you will be able to dub to DV - I think the formats are different (the details are beyond my knowledge I'm afraid).
I am sure I read somewhere that they were going to produce them with an 80 and even 120gb drives.
But don't quote me on it.
Regards,
Martin
I think the future for desk top DVD Recorders looks good. The inclusion of a large hard disk drive will, I feel, be of enormous importance, especially for those who are looking to replace their old VHS machines.
Wish I could jump 3yrs into the future, can`t wait !!!
Been playing with a set top box which stores the videos on a central server and can be watched anytime
And it supports time shift recording, electronic programming guides etc...
Now if they could only include extra audio tracks and special features who would need to buy DVD's
All this over DSL btw
And I do get erotic content too, what more could a guy like me want :d
hendrik
hendrik,
you forgot to post the link!