The review of this set-top DVD recorder in the current edition of CV doesn't, as far as I can see, say whether you can connect a PC by Firewire and output straight from the project timeline to the DVD R 890. Does anyone know, please, whether this is possible (as I think was stated in another test) or whether one has to export the project to DV tape first and then record it to the DVD R 890 by firewire connection between the camcorder and the DVD R 890 ?
Thanks for any comment.
Tony
Hopefully, someone (possibly Peter Wells or John AV) will be along shortly to answer this one.
Bob C
Yes , the 890 does record direct from the timeline - Faultlessly
Setup. SB Audigy , W2K , Prem 6.1 Microsoft`s 1394 drivers
Thanks, John A.V. Great news. An important feature. Regards, Tony.
I have seen new 980 models on sale at £ 349.
What is the difference between this model and the 890 model.
John
The original said,
The 880 has now firewire input
But, since I know that's NOT what was meant, let me just put in the corrected version:
The 880 has no firewire input
Bob C
[This message has been edited by bcrabtree (edited 04 November 2002).]
John A.V., may I take this opportunity to ask a couple more questions about this item please:
(1) Is 'audio dub' a possibility, i.e. can I accurately delete part of the sound track -perhaps just one or two words- without affecting the video?
(2) Does it have mic or line input to enable me to substitute new audio for the bits of the original audio I delete ?
Thanks,
Tony
Hi
No set-top DVD currently allows any form of audio dubbing over existing audio. The problem is that both the video and audio data are part of the same stream, you can not affect one without the other.
The Philips machines do not even support non-linear editing, so what you are asking is probably a long way off if at all. I doubt it will ever happen unless a hard-drive is used withing the machine to allow a complete rebuild of the DVD with the new audio before burning back.
Regards
Philip
Thanks PhillipL. This is disappointing as most high-end VCRs do have this facility which is needed for deleting/substituting offensive language in recorded TV broadcasts. Until DVD recorders can do everything that VCRs can do -and more- it would seem premature to consider ditching VCRs in favour of recordable DVD as so many pundits are suggesting. Before the Philips machine became a contender for my cash, I was going to buy the corresponding Panasonic as I was attracted to its unique time-slip feature. I put this question of audio dub to their technical department (over the phone) and they were adamant that their machine could audio-dub. Do you know otherwise for certain or is it possible that Panasonic's alternative recording system does allow audio-dub as they claim ? Thanks for any further comment , Tony.
[This message has been edited by tony bond (edited 04 November 2002).]
quote:Originally posted by tony bond:
Thanks PhillipL. This is disappointing as most high-end VCRs do have this facility which is needed for deleting/substituting offensive language in recorded TV broadcasts.
i'm confused as to how a modern high end vcr allows overdubbng to remove 'bad language'
as to the best of my knowledge you can't replace hifi sound without trashing the picture , that would require a deck with only linear sound tracks.
or
ability to playback only linear soundtrack by default.
most hifi decks play hifi rather than linear by default
I would only record to DVD the final edit -direct from the timeline.for my customers and for archive But there again I am using the machine within a business. As for foul language - I normally turn the word backwards in editing this often gives viewers a bit of a chuckle
Hi
As far as I am aware the Panasonic machines do not allow audio replacement/dubbing after the footage has been recorded, it just isn't practical to do.
As for VCRs and audio dubbing, they do not actually replace any sound tracks. Hi-Fi sound tracks cannot be replaced without disturbing the picture due to the way they are laid down together. However audio dubbing is possible on VCRs using the old linear tracks (these work the same as good old tape), these tracks live outside of the video/HiFi tracks and can be erased without disturbing the video.
The gotcha is these linear tracks are far from HiFi quality, and if stereo are even worse. Record in extended modes and the sound is even worse due to the low tape speed. If you want to dub out foul language it means playing back from these linear tracks at the reduced fidelity. Also the foul language is still on the tape, and can be heard again by switching the deck back to play the Hi-Fi Tracks.
DV Camcorders allow the digital tracks to be replaced as these again are recorded in a different area of the tape, the data isn't mixed together but instead physically separate, so the audio can be erased without affecting the video.
DVD is recorded as a multiplexed signal, and it is too difficult technologically to achieve dubbing once it has been laid down to disc.
For example to achieve this on a computer you would: Record the video and audio on to your hard drive from the DVD. De-mux (split apart) the video and audio, edit the audio, Mux them together (re-combine) and then author and record back to the disc.
Hope this helps explain what goes on.
Regards
Philip
Very helpful explanation Phil, thanks. Most grateful to other contributors too. My trusty old Akai VCR certainly audio dubs and, whilst it's nice to now have -for the first time- an understanding of how this works, the lower quality of the dubbed bits is a price worth paying to be rid of offensive language so that broadcast drama and feature films otherwise worth keeping can be made family-friendly. I'll check with Panasonic and post here if they have interesting news on this point. Thanks again all. Tony
quote:Originally posted by tony bond:
Does it have mic or line input to enable me to substitute new audio for the bits of the original audio I delete ?
Tony, I'm really curious (perhaps getting the wrong end of the stick though) but do you actually dub your own voice over offensive words to make the broadcast recordings 'family-friendly'?
For Paul Argyle
Paul, you are correct. As my VCR has mic input I record my own voice in substitution of profane language on broadcast material -but don't let directors of foul language plays and films know that I re-edit their work in this way. It's pretty accurate. With a bit of practice, you can delete even a single expletive without damaging adjacent audio. Sometimes, I don't bother to record my own voice over the trashy bits -I just leave a blank space which is hardly noticeable if you are only deleting the odd word. Or you can feed in a tone as the dub. I read in the press, about a year ago, that there is a gadget in the States which connects to a VCR; it has a database of offensive words which it seeks to find and, if found, deletes from incoming audio in near-real-time. There was a suggestion that a PAL version would be available here around now but I haven't heard any more about it. If anyone on this site comes across news of a UK version of this gadget, I'd be most grateful if they would please let me know. Cheers. Tony.
Perhaps they will produce one which replaces the dialogue with 'expletive deleted' as per the Nixon tapes. 
One of the most laughable cases of this PC dubing was when Beverly Hills Cop 1 was shown at 8pm on BBC 1. It played like a badly dubed foriegn language film! An urban myth was that the subtitles were from the uncut version!!!
[This message has been edited by Bomag (edited 06 November 2002).]
Off at a tangent... but have you ever watched Top Of The Pops with teletext subtitles on? Can be quite amusing - except when you think of the poor unfortunate soul who has to transcribe all the "lyrics"
BTW I only did it once, honestly...
quote:Originally posted by John H Jones:
I have seen new 980 models on sale at £ 349.
What is the difference between this model and the 890 model.
John
Any follow up on this? I'm curious about the difference too.
Where did you see it at £349 John?
In case anyone else is interested, Panasonic confirmed to me again today that their DVD recorder with built in hard drive (DMR-HS2)does have an audio dub facility enabling one to delete any part of the audio track without disturbing the video. I guess I'll have to keep saving and go for this model as audio dub is a vital feature for me to manage off-air recordings. Hope CV will check out & comment on the effectiveness of this feature in any future more detailed test of this machine. Tony.
I have the HS2 - there is no mention of audio dub in the instruction book (all 98 A4 pages of it!), or on the remote.
I use Video Studio 6 to do anything of this kind. Just choose 'Create Audio file' from the 'finish' menu, edit the wav file in 'Cool Edit', or similar prog (making sure not to alter the length of the file) and then re-import it to the audio track of Video Studio. The final step is to mute the original sound, then export back to DV, or burn to DVD.
Richard.
For your further info , Price Costco a wholesale warehouse are selling the 890 (firewire) for £399.00 + VAT (£465) see other posting from me on this forum
Reply for Paul,
I have now looked at the 980 model and found that there is no Firewire socket, only Super VHS,and the normal AV connections.
It's for sale at Hitchins( a subsidiary of Littlewoods so I understand.)
John
Here's the news story we wrote about the new-generation models.
This, hopefully, will make clear the differences between the new and previous models.
Bob C
=============================
CV - News – August 2002 - Philips low-cost DVD+R set-top burners
Headline
Philips slashes DVD+R/+RW set-top burner price to under £500
Two third-generation set-top DVD+R/+RW burners that are launched this month, each virtually half the price of the model it replaces. The two machines, the DVDR880 (£499, inc VAT) and DVDR890 (£599), take over from the £800 DVDR980 and £900 DVDR985 – models that were introduce only few months ago (news, May 2002, p9).
Set-top burners have built in tuners and timers, and are sold as hi-tech substitutes for VCRs. The newcomers - which feature VCRplus+ timer recording and an AC-3 decoder/encoder - have almost identical spec to their forerunners and to one another. However, as before, only the more expensive model has a FireWire port (but still, input-only), though, it does distinguish itself in a new way, by offering an extended record mode of six hours. This is in addition to the two-hour, three-hour and four-hour modes of its cheaper stable-mate and the previous-generation models.
Each model uses the MPEG-2 encoder that was introduced last time round and is said to offer best-in-class video and audio quality, irrespective of recording time – a claim we’ve still not been able to test.
The encoder is also reckoned to prevent recordings made at slow speeds from stopping short of their full recording time. This is most likely to happen if the material being recorded has a lot of movement that requires a higher data rate to maintain quality. Philips’ encoder uses Smart VBR - a method of variable bit-rate writing - which constantly monitors the data-rate to work out if a recording is likely to over run, and reduces the data-rate (and quality) slightly to fit everything in.
The Philips machines are claimed to play virtual all disc types, including rival DVD-R/DVD-RW format, SVCD and VCD, audio CD and, unlike their predecessors, even MP3-CD. Sockets include front audio and S-video/composite video inputs, and two rear Scarts, one able to input RGB, the other to take it in.
Philips, 020 8665 6350; www.ce.philips.co.uk
So,after all that, should I buy a DVD burner for my computer (and a dvd player for the TV) or do both jobs and get added videorecording capability by buying the Phillips DVD recorder?
I`d be very interested to hear a response to this question - especially from owners of the mentioned Philips 890 &/or PC DVD burners.
Is there any tangible quality difference i.e REAL WORLD difference?
Regards
josjac
It really does depend on what you want to do.
If you want to create good looking menus then you will have to go the PC burner route
Quality of footage will depend on several factors all discussed on these forums IE: software VS Hardware encoding. The software programmes that are available to author discs which are at present range from the feeble to quite good but needs more development.
I have the 890 machine. I give it for quality of encoding 5 stars but that of course is anecdotal and not based on any lab tests.
Thanks for your`e thoughts, John
Apologies for asking one of those "unanswerable questions - at least a short question with a potentially lonnnnng answer.
Truth is, up until a few days ago, i`d considered DVD burners as a "one of these day`s" purchases - due to their cost. So i hadn`t filled up much of my 1MB of human memory with the technicals.
Then i noticed the Philips 880 & 890 at reasonable prices, & last night the new dual-format Sony PC based burners at very affordable ones (£241 up). Now i will be absorbant to the neccessary info
Regards
josjac
josjac,
£241 for a Sony + and - RW/R Burner, Pray tell me Where? I NEED ONE NOW!!
Just over a month ago I bought a Philips 880 (as the DV enabled 890 was over £200 more at the time (( I just could not afford it ))I had to accept the fact that I would lose a little bit of quality by transfering my PC edited DV tapes via the S-Video socket of my Camcorder to my new burner) but I figured that the compression to MPEG2 would make this unnoticable.
Unfortunately to my dismay the cheep £67 ASDA DVD player that we have in our bedroom, an APEX AD-1100WB that came with a 3 year gaurantee and has the ability to play JPEG photos from my digital camera in slide show format on CD refuses to recognise +R DVD and +RW DVD disks.
To add to my heartache my new Goodmans 5 DVD Home cinema Hi-Fi with great surround sound on Monsters Inc and Harry Potter for my Kids also refuses to load the Philips disks. To top it all my DVD drive in my PC, a Pioneer S104 Spits out the disk despite trying 3 different 3 versions of the firmware. The only thing we have that plays the disks other than the 880 itself is the PS2. If I can get a burner that can read + R/RW and Burn -R/RW I will be very, very, very happy.
Thanks Mike.
PS. I have tried holding down 2 & 3 on the open tray and made edits compatible, it has made no difference.
Hi Mike
Sorry to hear u`re troubles. I (& many others i suspect)have been putting off buying a DVD burner for the kind of incompatibility issues you describe. Till now anyhow. I`ve been watching the format "war" taking shape for a year or so - occasionally checkin` out ever fallin` prices. My original feeling (i`m not knowledgable enough on this subject to have an opinion) that it would be the + camp not the - that ends up on top seems to be coming to fruition. But the Sony DRU-500A covers all bases, so if u do buy, you can`t really go wrong (apart from seeing the price fall on the day u recieve it of course!)
regards
josjac
just kiddin`. errr the info u want...
try www.cclcomputers.co.uk also www.lynxdv.co.uk also www.aria.co.uk (also selling the OEM ver. of the A04 for £160 inc. vat over the weekend - not sure `bout now
BAD news is all (i think) waiting on stock to arrive - quoting mid November
good luck
[This message has been edited by josjac (edited 12 November 2002).]
[This message has been edited by josjac (edited 12 November 2002).]
Thanks John A V. Sounds to me that for someone starting out, like me, the DVDR890 is the answer. (Though perhaps wait a bit longer for the price to come down further) Can you, or someone, though, please explain about these fancy menus that can be done on the pc dvd burner - what do they achieve, and what is the alternative offered by the Philips machine?
Doug
quote:Originally posted by mike cogger:
£241 for a Sony + and - RW/R Burner, Pray tell me Where? I NEED ONE NOW!!
Cheapest I have seen is one which sold new on eBay for £270. I now see another one has been listed, with the bidding starting at £270....
The Value of 1st play menus are aesthetic really , just makes the start look good. Plain menu`s can be created on the 890.
quote:Originally posted by JOHN . A.V.:
Yes , the 890 does record direct from the timeline - Faultlessly
Setup. SB Audigy , W2K , Prem 6.1 Microsoft`s 1394 drivers
John - do I understand this correctly? The 890 can be connected to a computer through the firewire ports and is recognised as a DVD burner? Any drivers etc required?
Thanks a lot for your early reply. I have just ordered a 890 and would be too glad to learn that I won't need to buy a separate DVD burner for the computer :)
Chris
Hi Everone,
I have just bought a 890 from the shop that gave it to me o0n loan because I felt it was so good. The original price quoted was £599 in VAT. When I asked for the best deal that they could do they looked up the price list and said there was a promotion now on it and therefore reduced it to £469.99 inc VAT. What a deal from a non internet source. I would therefore shop around hard and ask for the lowest price.
------------------
All the best
Dave
Dave Knowles Films
Southampton - uk
Hi Chris
No the Philips machine is not recognised as a DVD burner. It is just recognised as a video device, and will only record DV video.
A DVD Burner accepts data and allows you to author DVDs and create your own menus etc, the Philips machine will ONLY record a video stream.
Regards
Philip
Think of the 890 as just a VCR. There is no device control from the export movie function.I record direct to the timeline just pressing record on the 890 & enter on the PC.(I have got into the habit of having 5 seconds of black video at the start) There are members that have been having problems with recording from the timeline a quick search on this forum will highlight them.
Thanks Philip and John for your immediate replies! :)
Any suggestion for a low-cost DVD writer on the computer which is compatible with the 890?
Chris
Cheapest 890 i could find at the moment...
http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/productdetailsnew.asp?modelcode=PHI-DVDR890&affiliateid= 95
Whilst searching i came across mention of Phillips 1000mk2 ? does anyone know what advantage this may have over the 880/890 series ?
Kind regards
[This message has been edited by Stuart B-M (edited 04 January 2003).]
This link for Comet's Website, http://www.comet.co.uk/cometbrowse/
they sell the 880 for £367.95 and the 890 for £479.95 inclusive of VAT, and has free delivery. These prices are via the Web only, as the Comet Store prices are about recommended retail levels.
To add to the buying side, I bought a Philip's 890 this week from Richer Sounds in Leeds, And their model is region free for a paltry sum of £440 after 20 minutes of haggling. Before I paid them a visit I rang and asked about internet price matching to which they said they definatly would, Yes.. When I got to their shop there was a bit of a conflict because Empire Stores Whom I got the lowest price only sell the Region 2 model. To finish they finally sold me a Region free 890 as quoted for £440. I am very pleased with that..
quote:Originally posted by Gary MacKenzie:
http://www.anything-direct.com/rm_direct/philips_dvd_recorder_dvdr_890.htm£445
A cheaper quote here too but both are R2 only..
http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/productdetailsnew.asp?modelcode=PHI-DVDR890
Just ordered one from Digital Point (Birmingham) over the internet, for £429.98
Includes free next day delivery & a Scart lead
DS
Got mine form srtl.co.uk for £417.12 inc vat.
------------------
Mike
Finding this discussion really interesting thanks to everyone who has contributed. I have the opportunity to buy a Phillips 890 but what I really want a DVD R for is to transer my US NTSC VHS tapes to DVD does anyone know if this would be possible and if not what model would I look for.
Once transferred I want to run them on my PC.
Many thanks!
Michael.
The 890 can record NTSC signals. but it must be from an NTSC source that is to say the VHS player needs to output pure NTSC - not the hybrid 4.43 which is the commen one.
In short a VHS machine that is made for the NTSC countries or a genuine Multistandard that can output NTSC 3.59.If you have one of these. and need to edit them on a PC - the 890 is not really what you need.unless it is your end product. you would need an analogue capture device that has the NTSC template. and your editing programme set up for NTSC.
Many thanks John, that has made it much clearer now. I was going to use a VCR that plays both PAL and NTSC tapes however I'm guessing now that this would not be the correct output so I'll find out.
The DVD created from the NTSC tapes would be the end product as such. My main reason for putting them onto DVD would really be get them onto a less volatile media and as far as the PC is concerned, I just want to do some screen captures from them using PowerDVD or similar. There wouldn't be any editing or such it would be the end product so I'm guessing from what you said that the 890 would be ok.
One last thing I'm also presuming that the 890 records DVD in region 2 format, is there anyway you can record in multi region?
Thanks again for your reply and sorry for further questions!
Michael.
John,
A related NTSC question. When I buy a DVD recorder, one thing I will want to do is be able to create NTSC DVDs (to share with family and friends in the US).
My source input is DV PAL. I plan to convert my edited footage to NTSC in software, so I will be in a position where I have a NTSC .avi file on my PC. The question is, can I write this file out to the 890 to create a NTSC DVD?
Mark B
I can honestly think of any issues with that at all - should work fine.