Pro Camera Choices

I could be wrong but the 250 only has a fixed lense, and unles you have compatables with your other Sony stuff, you will still need to rekit this cam.
We have used the JVC500 for a few years and it has proved a reliable cam. I would, if getting another, look around for 2nd hand, low head hours, but with the upgraded lense, viewfinder and micholder, as these extras add quite a lump on top of a new cam, but are essential in obtaining the tremendous picture quality this cam has to offer.
If in doubt try to get a demo and compare the 2 cams, but make sure the 500 has the broadcast lense.
Only my 2pencworth amd hope it helps.
Ian

Hi Barry,

I have a DSR-390 along with a VX2000, the 390 is similar to the JVC, it has the 1/2 CCD's, pro manual lense etc. I've found that the 390 is a good bit better than the VX2000(you would hope so I suppose it cost 3 times as much), a lot more sensitive in low light, in situations where I'm at 0db gain on the 390 I could be as high as 9 or 12 db gain on the VX to get similar images. The 390 handles contrasty situations a lot better and has a lot more controls(which I'm still trying to get my head round :)) but in the right conditions the 2 cut together fairly well.

The 250 won't be a big upgrade picture wise from the VX as the 250 shares the same CCD's/lense as the VX2000/PD150, it has better iris control I believe and audio will be better and I find that the full size camera is a lot more stable than the VX is when not on a tripod.

Hope that helps.

John.

Have you looked at JVC's 700WE? Don't know the prices, suspect it's a fair bit more expensive, BUT it is true widescreen. With the continuing growth of DVD's that's likely to become more important in the future, and once a couple of firms start making a point of it, everybody else will have to follow or adjust prices down.

Equally, as it becomes more of an issue, more companies will buy w/s kit, want to sell 4;3, and 4:3 cameras will rapidly lose their value. Remember what happened to the price of Beta kit a few years ago, for similar reasons at the high end of the market?

Hi Barry

Been thinking about the DSR250 myself but I have heard that the audio is not up to scratch, don't know the truth in this but check it out first.

Harry

Not that you do Broadcast work, Barry, but Sony definitely rules in terms of Broadcast cameras. JVC have a bit of a bad reputation (allegedly), in terms of reliability and robustness. Certainly, we had problems with JVC cameras in the past.
Your DV decks - the Sony will play DVCAM, but may not always recognise the timecode, and you may well get stuttering playback. Some tapes play fine, others do not.
The Panasonic deck is even more of a problem. Some of those decks will not play dvcam,full stop. Others will play DVCAM without problem. I am refering here to the specific model..not the panasonic range. Before I bought a Panasonic deck I actually tried the same tape in 3 different machines. 2 refused to play the tape, 1 played it perfectly.
We have used both the Sony and Panasonic decks with Liquid Purple, and had problems with both when playing DVCAM. No problems when tapes are played in DSR DVCAM decks.
The DSR250 is essentially a PD150 in a shoulder mounted case.The 390 is a much better camera, but, does not have widescreen. We use a DSR500 and a PD150, and can get a pretty good colour match, but the 150 has a very much inferior lens.
Regarding the Sony finance, has the offer not ended? Also, the eligibility was very stringent, so i heard. Have you actually been approved by them? It is nothing to do with Credit ratings, it is to do with business criteria. Either you meet it, or don`t.

Hallmark

Thank you for your reply using your current & former hats!

Re the finance aspect! When I asked Natalie of Sony about this & the criteria apertaining, she advised that there were 2 schemes, one for vat registered companies & one for non-vat companies!

I also spoke to someone this afternoon, who shall remain nameless but is very well known to us all & is also a reputable dealer, who offered me a DSR250 kit on 20 months interest free!

The JVC it would appear is probably the better camera if used with other than the basic lens. I may well put it to the test this thursday.

Thanks also to all the other members who have replied either on or off board.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

on the jvc watch the back focus adjustment ring very easy to snap as you tighten and damm expensive to replace, about seventy five quid.
we have also had problems on this cam with lots of error codes for instance not shutting the tape flap within seven seconds cause's an error code which shuts the cam down. you need to power off and remove battery shut the flap and then power back up. we have about 12 at the university and they can be a pain. i've heard the dsr 250 is just a dvcam vx9000 mic preamp was supposed to be hissy and the lens wasn't supposed to be much good
but i could be misinformed on this, that may have been the dsr 200
my panasonic dv10000 DOES play dvcam no problem, i think mine might be one of the last made you could always get a dvcam tape to check out compatability, as said before DHR1000 will play dvcam as well
Garry

Hi Barry,

I had problems with the 20 months finance on a DSR-25, I have no credit problems but my business was less than a year old and sony wanted full accounts before they would approve finance, as I didn't yet have accounts and was running at a loss because of my startup costs I got rejected. Even though as I'm a sole trader and I'm responsible for any debts and I've got a good credit rating that still wasn't enough for Sony, the dealer I went through didn't know anything about this and were as surprised as I was when it got knocked back.

Just wanted to make you aware of any potential problems.

John.

Barry
DSR250 will record in DV or DVCAM, full size or miniDV. A full size DVCAM tape should give you atleast 270 minutes recrding in DV mode - if that is required.
Got mine last month. Good pictures.
Audio - I am not sure!

Mahesh

Can you elaborate on why you are not sure on the audio?

Also, does anyone know if the 250 is due for replacement soon?

Many thanks

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

Barry my Panny NV DV10000 plays DVCAM, I I bleive the sony will as well but takes a bit longer to lock in.

Barry. I cannot at this stage. There may be a problem with AUTO setting. Again it may only be my camera. I hoping to carry out some tests tomorrow against DSR300. If they make any sense, I shall post them here.

If this is the low audio in the 250 then go into menu then onto the tape logo and then select -12dB instead of -18dB, I think that is correct. I do not have a 250 that is what I read somewhere.

What about the Panasonic DVC200 ?

Doesn't anyone else, bar me , use them ?

800 lines of resolution !

Upto 276 minutes continuous recording !

I've been using them for nearly 3 years now, and I cant find fault with them.

As for JVC ?

Stay clear of this company. They may be a big company but you are only a mino in their eyes.

I'll explain...
A few years back I took the bold step into Digital recording by purchasing a JVC D9 (DigitalS) setup, camera and deck.

3 times inside the first year both were returned to JVC , due to picture breakup. 3 times they were returned saying they were fixed. They were not. On a forth occasion (outside the guranteed year) they was sent back to JVC and after being without them for almost 3 months, were returned to me, still not repaired and with a bill for same.
This happened 4 years ago now. I still havn't paid the bill nor dont intend to. I'm still receiving reminders.
But not one tape has been put through either machine since.
It's alot of money to be sitting doing nothing, but JVC have refused a refund.
I talked to a JVC rep at Video Forum last year and he just told me he was on sales and that that was a technical problem.

Since then I purchased the Panasonic equipment and to date have not had any problems.

I use a DVC 200 and they're a bargain.

My only hesitation in recomending them is that although I've been a panni fan throughout my career, Sony beat Panni to the introduction of lower end digital stuff.

It's easier to stay with one manufacturer and Panni were too slow to come down to the wedding /corporate level.

It's still a bloody good camera - I don't see the need for the error correction with DVCam, even though I use a DSR25 as my feeder machine.

Fabian

I passed your comments to a JVC rep this morning when I was roadtesting a 5000e!

I`m hoping for you that he will investigare further!

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

Thanks Barry, I'll keep you informed of any outcome.

Decided to get the Sony DSR250! Reason being that, as pointed out, it will be very much compatable with the 2 VX2000`s also, as was tactfully pointed out, "You don`t do Broadcast" Which I don`t! I don`t see any point in purchasing kit above my market niche.

It will be interesting to see if I`m able to obtain the Sony free finance deal, I`ll keep you posted.

Thanks to all with the various advice.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

Z
It is on -12dB. -18 is too low. I think I have an intermittent fault on my audio circuit. There is distortion affecting the front mic input only. Spent all day yesterday blasting tones and loud music at the camera - and my ear drums. As a matter of interest, I compared the supplied microphone with the one on DSR300. The DSR250 mic is 6dB low. (50%)
Intermittent fault is an engineer's nightmare. Let us see how this gets sorted.

Finally decided on the DSR250! No problem with Sony Finance, bonus!! Means I won`t have to work an Insurance scam like some!!! :) only joking

Decided on H.Preston for supply & even though their stock isn`t in for a couple of weeks they have kindly lent me a DSR300 until it arrives.

Thanks for the input guys

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

Barry, what did you have to do for the finance, did you need to produce accounts etc?

John.

I had to give the length of time trading, turnover, accountants contact details.

Only the "Sony" goods were allowable, i.e. not the plate or batteries etc. I I gave the info over the phone to Prestons, they called back the same day to confirm OK & then sent out the forms to be completed. All in all, quite painless.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

Without reading all the above posts, just the original. The Sony DSR250 in NOT a pro camera, the lens is servo which renders it none-pro. The JVC on the other hand has a true manual focus lens that actually stops turning at infinity, anything other than this can't be used for serious pro work.

The Sony DSR390P on the other hand has a true manual focus lens.

The DSR250 is a jumped up/gloryfied VX2000, if you decide to go the DSR250 route I would buy a second hand VX1000 off eBay for £400 and spend the rest on something else, believe me the picture quality difference between VX1000/2000 and DSR250 are none existant as they are both the same lens and internal gubbins.

If you can streatch a bit more cash go for a DSR390P, it will last forever and in the right hands will produce near Broadcast results.

Thanks for the input Dragonslayer! But please don`t take offence at the following!

If you have not read previous posts you are not aware of what has been said! It`s like being at a party, hearing something of interest & joining in much later.

I had already decided on a DSR 250 to match my existing 2 x VX2000`s! As politely pointed out above, "I don`t do Broadcast" It wasn`t so much re cost, more to do with what my market is. Whilst I would like to do more "Pro" work I felt that to buy a cam like the DSR390 was overkill for my mainly wedding market client base.

Horses for courses!

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

What if I had been the second poster in this thread, it wouldn't have mattered then would it, think about it Barry, what do you want me to do, cut and paste this into second position.

It's irrelevant, you asked a question and I put up a response, I don't need to read everyone else’s response to do that do I?

Anyway good luck with your camera buying decision, I'm sure you'll make the right choice.

Just one final piece of advice though, and this is from a personal point of view.

I would go for a second hand VX1000/2000 and with the rest of the money you save buy a GlideCam, the pro version with the vest, arm and counterweight etc, new for this size miniDV camera (XL1, VX2000, PD150 etc) they cost around £3000.

The only reason I mention this is that although I have never shot a wedding I can imagine that it is very hard work physically, especially on hot summers days, a SteadyCam (or Glidecam in this case) will relieve you of this and make you look a lot more professional with that rig attached to you like a suit of amour, and most importantly of all it will totally remove any shaky camerawork (not that I'm insinuating that you shoot shaky footage) once you master the art of SteadyCam operation.

I can even put you in touch with a professional who does one day classes on how to use GlideCam, his name is Tom Peterson and he is based in Birmingham, he is the principle DoP for the TV programme GroundForce.

Hope all this helps.

Regards.

To Dragonslayer

Interesting concept, but the 'real life' situation at weddings is that for steady pictures a tripod is essential. There are occasions where it is acceptable to go hand-held (car interior shot of bride and groom kissing before leaving for the reception, for example) but the sight of a camera operator in a 'suit of armour' (and perspiring profusely in hot weather) would be enough to make most vicars banish them to a distance where the tele end of the zoom is needed (and shake is at its worse)!

For steady tripod shots with movement a detachable set of dolly wheels is the answer - whether it is for getting the shot of the bride and her father walking up the aisle before pulling back to a discreet position for the ceremony, or tracking backwards in front of the bride and groom as they walk down the aisle and leave the church, or doing 360 degree circles around them during their first dance together.

Ray Liffen

I just thought with church steps, uneven grass, tiled church floors, people everywhere, having to pick up a tripod and dolly and lug it around with a bag full of batteries and tapes etc would make the SteadyCam an essential peice of kit for the wedding videographer (is that word in the UK dictionary yet?).

CK distribution will hire you a GlideCam with arm and vest for £50 per day, go and hire one for your next wedding (I know it will eat into your profit a little) and I garauntee you will never look back.

Dragonslayer, I use a glidecam V16 on all my weddings and believe me it's not easy to use. Fully rigged up it weighs around 30 lbs all centred in the lower back muscles, I've used it on one occasion for around an hour non stop and I felt like I'd gone 10 rounds with tyson after I sat down. I must admit the glidecam really does give that bit extra to your work but it is definately not easy and don't believe anyone who says it is, you can't just hire a piece of kit like this for a day or two and go and shoot a wedding, I've helped out a number of people who were ready to throw in the towel on steadicams becuase they couldn't work out how to even balance them properly, there is a lot of practice and patience required to get the best out of a steadicam.

John.

Dragonslayer

It`s not irrelevant where you post! You appear to be missing the point! In reading the thread you follow the different reasoning & viewpoints of various members, that surely is the whole point of a "Thread" You would have also realised that there was no logical reason to go & purchase a VX1000/2000, I already have 2, & I also made this point in my reply to you.

As far as a glidecam is concerned, others have answered that for you! Thank you though for offering to point me in the right direction of someone who could provide tuition. Whilst i don`t claim to know every one or every thing, after 16 years creating wedding videos I consider myself experienced enough & whilst I`m taking the amount of bookings for my kind of work that I am, I`ll continue in the same fashon.

I hope you won`t be to offended at my post but IMO post`s need to be read to enable you to get most information & to respond in the best possible way.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all occasions

I should add that with the glidecam there are only certain times during the day you can really use it, ceremony and speeches are tripod only, during the photo's you can get some nice glidecam shots but it is amazing using it for the first dance

John.

Sorry Barry but I'm with Dragonslayer here.
Your first line said that you wanted a pro camera.
With all respect to DSR250 owners at the end of the day it's essentially a vx2000 or whatever in a different box. Personally,I always thought it was Sony's attempt to match the JVC dv500 (standard lens) on price.
You've obviously looked carefully at all the options and credit for that but I believe Dragonslayer has a valid point.

I hired a GlideCam for two days, 1 to learn how to use it and 1 more to actually use it, I found it very easy to get used to, but maybe that's just me.

Rob2882

You are correct in my first line! no problem with that at all! The point I am trying to make is that looking at various options I decided that the best solution was a DSR250. I accept that it is not a "Pro" camera, but, by reading the thread Dragonslayer would have understood why.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

lol, You must be the exception to all other world wide steadicam owners/operators then dragonslayer , it'd be interesting to see some of your footage using it. Did you have perfectly steady footage with no horizon trouble, did you manage to balance OK with a 3 secondish drop time in one day to give you the best control? what about dynamic balance? I'm not trying to knock you or anything it's just that there's more to it than most people realise to get good results, you should go over to www.steadicamforum.com and see the advice the pro steadicam ops give to people. Very few come on and say they found it easy

John.

Barry, Am I missing something. You said you were looking for a pro camera. By that I assume you were looking to improve on the quality of your footage. You've now settled on something which, by your own admission, is not a pro camera so what were you trying to acheive. I can't speak from personal experience but it appears that the 250 will give the same/similar results as your existing vx's. If you just wanted to get rid of some cash then I'd have had it.

Way to go Rob, coudn't agree more on that last bit ;)
steelej, I tried out a propper SteadyCam at Optex about 3 years ago and it took me all of 10 minutes to figure it out. As for the Glidecam, when I hired one for 2 days about 2 or so years ago, I kid you not, it took me 5 minutes to ballance it to perfection and my horizontals where perfect, because of my perfect ballancing and setting up of the GlideCam I suppose.
What can I say, I know people run courses on SteadyCam operation and I own 3 videos on the subject, but as for me, what can I say, I'm just a naturally tallented operater I suppose. You would think my SteadyCam work was a tracking shot if I didn't tell you ;)

OK I'll take your word for it It'd be nice to see some of those "Tracking" shots if you still have them ;)

John.

Dragonslayer

At least you read Rob`s post!

If you taken the trouble to read the rest you would have seen that I have already got TWO VX2000`s!

I know that my post was headed "Pro Camera Choices" and that the 250 isn`t in that catagory, but I`ll repeat, for me & what I do it was the correct choice.

If you want sarcasam, no problem! I`ve got a degree in it.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

Calm down chaps, it doesn't help.

I have read all of this with quite a bit of interest, and come to a few conclusions :
Firstly, I am not really sure why Barry bothered with this posting? None of the advice has been useful in coming to a purchase decision, and I am not convinced it would ever have been of any use. I am not criticising anyone posting here, but, Barry, the decision has come down to cost against benefit, hasn`t it? You asked about PRO cameras (and the DSR250 is technically a PRO camera, but not a Broadcast camera). All the benefits of an improvement in lens, sound etc have been ruled out because anything that would work better than/with your existing set-up is too expensive.. I think it was an easy decision, and one that was not influenced by this posting. You never actually said what was the reason for adding another camera, did you?

With regard to Steadicam (or Glidecam), we own one. I think most full-time operators would agree that it is a very difficult piece of kit to use unless you are using it regularly, and it is a definite art and skill to use properly. Still, we all have natural aptitude for different things, and if Dragonslayer is as competent as he suggests (and I am not disbelieving), then he is amongst a fortunate very few. I would not advocate wearing a harness for the duration of a wedding though..and certainly would not move amongst a crowd of guests at a wedding without a "spotter". Very dangerous for all concerned otherwise.

Barry..what about the deck? You have not referred to that again.
Also, my original comment about you "not doing Broadcast" seemed to be greeted a little with your "degree in sarcasm". My point was perfectly valid, and justified - I was meaning that your clients are probably not spending enough to justify the extra investment in a full-spec broadcast camera, and that a DSR250 would be good enough for their needs, BUT, if you WERE going to purchase a Broadcast camera, then most camera crews buy SONY. You seem to have agreed with that comment ultimately.

The reason "I bothered" was that I was considering various options to replace my full size camera! I considered various options including taking a trip to a JVC dealer to roadtest the 5000e! It was not particulary about cost, more what was suitable for my needs, which I feel the 250 fits the bill & complements my 2000`s. I never brought into the dicusion the "Broadcast" aspect.

As far as the deck is concerned, I believe the 250 will record in DV as well as DVCAM! My DHR 1000 will play DVCAM, at the wrong speed & my NV-DV10000 plays correctly but with artefacts at the R/H side of the screen. I therefore plan "A" to record mostly in DV & "B" if I record in DVCAM to use the camera as a playback machine to facillitate digitising within LE.

As far as sarcasm is concerned, whilst I`m big enough & ugly enough to take critiscm on the chin, I don`t take kindly to people meddling in my affairs.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

I can wrap this whole thread up with just one word "AMATEUR"

The heading was “Pro Camera Choices” wasn’t it, DSR250, 5000E, VX2000, don’t make me laugh, these are amateur cameras, PERIOD!

Now, Pro cameras, that would be Panasonic AJ-D910WA DVCPRO50, MPEG IMX, Sony Digital Betacam at the bottom end of the Pro kit with the Sony F950 HD, DVCPRO HD, D5 HD, Ikegami HD and of course the greatest of them all the Thompson Viper HD, then at the very top of the scale we have, erm, let me see now, oh yes, that little camcorder called a Panavision 35mm film camera, you know, it takes 7 minute reels of celluloid.

In terms of quality it goes pretty much like this:

MiniDV
DVCAM
DVCPRO
DVCPRO-50
DigitalBeta
D-1
DVCPRO-HD-P
HD-CAM-P
HD-CAM/24P
D-5
Viper
Film

So as you can plainly see Barry, your DSR250 and VX2000’s are leagues away from Pro, they aren’t even close, they are at the very bottom of the food chain, your camcorders are simply amoeba’s in the grand evolution of camcorders. You buy these camcorders at Curry’s and Dixon’s and get a free MiniDV tape with your purchase and maybe a 10% discount off a spunky Velbon tripod.

So don’t put the word “Pro” in your posting if you don’t mean Pro and it’s obvious by your idiotic grammar (and the fact that you are primarily a wedding videographer) that you are not a Pro and don’t have a single Pro bone in your body so stop pretending to be one and carry on doing your weddings for £500 a throw.

You carry on convincing yourself that your Spiffy new DSR250 is a Pro camcorder Barry if it helps you sleep at night ;)

Oh, to all the wedding guys on here, no offence, it’s muppets like Barry that give genuine Professional wedding videographers a bad name.

Dragonslayer

I think you're rude.
I think you owe Barry and this board an apology.
I also think if you want to make this kind of personal attack it should be under your own name and not some childish psudeonym.

Either that or kindly go and rant somewhere else.

Richard Bird.

If I earn my living by being a wedding photographer Dragonslayer, then the camera(s) I use are by very definition professional cameras. I don't care who makes them, how many chips they have in them, what the shutter sector angle is for the negative stock, they're working cameras.

The camera - any camera - is just a worthless piece of mantlepiece junk until used by somebody with experience, skill and devotion. Talent is not something bestowed on you because of the kilos of Sony kit hoisted high on your shoulder, believe me.

tom.

If you say so Tom. That’s the thing about amateurs, they are always trying to convince themselves that their tacky amateur gear is professional kit, get real.

Well said, Tom. Sony actually used to make a destinction between their Betacam SP PRO range and Broadcast range. Both were still aimed at camera operators earning a living from their work, but the markets were different.
Dragonslayer refers to Barry`s grammar rather unfairly. Professional, as defined in the Cambridge dictionary is:
a person who has the type of job that needs a high level of education and training:

2 INFORMAL someone who has worked hard in the same type of job for a long time and has become skilled at dealing with any problem that might happen:

3 a person who does as a job what people usually do as a hobby:

4 a sportsperson, especially a golf or tennis player, who is employed by a club (GROUP) to train its members in a particular sport

professionalism - the combination of all the qualities that are connected with trained and skilled people

So you may be PROFESSIONAL, but not show any PROFESSIONALISM!
Sony regard their DVCAM range as for Professional use, but they are not claiming it to be a film camera. Indeed, one clear distinction that should be made is that cameras from the Professional range have better warranty support (than domestic DV) in the first two years.
I think some of the posts here may have lacked some professionalism, even if they have been made by professionals!!!!!!!
At the end of the day, does it really matter? Whatever field you work in, do you not strive for the best results and a satisfied customer?
Barry - perhaps if you look beyond sarcasm, you may not induce such responses too.

As a young school boy,I used to day-dream about me being a famous film maker.
As a young adult, I bought a 8mm cine camera, made movies but always thought that I would make better movies if I had a 16mm Bolex.
40 years have passed, now I carry out my dream as a full time job. It has just dawned on me that it is not the camera that makes good movies. It's the person holding it.
I have come to a stage when I can indulge and get the camera I want. I could have picked any from Sony's VX series, DSR2xx series, DSR3xx series or DSR5xx series.
I may or may not be a professional but I use a video camera for my full time job.
I bought a DSR250 last month to replace my DSR200.
For corporate work where I know my camera would not cope, I hire a camera person with a DSR300. For most of my work, DSR250 is accurate and quick and suitable for the work I do.
For over the shoulder 2-person interview, I would use a DSR250 and DSR300. Filming from about 6 feet, it difficult to tell which camera is which.
Horses for courses comes to mind.

Steadycam.
I have a junior steadycam and used it all the time in early 90's. Done wedding then - never again. I think they good for tracking shots where you can rehearse the shot. For live events, I would not dream of using it now. I did a forestry show about 10 years ago, walked with the steadycam all day, got fantastic shots.
But then, I was 10 years younger.

Dragonslayer, 'Because of my perfect ballancing' - I'm very puzzled, what exactly is ballancing?, it sounds painful. :confused: Tony C.

Dragonslayer,

What exactly is your point? Apart from a nice (if debatable) ordering of videotape formats, you just seem to be showing a lack of understanding of both professional and broadcast work. It certainly isn't the tape format or the camera that makes it professional but the operator who uses it.

I was present on a shoot for the BBC's 'Small Town Gardens' gardening series, which was using a JVC DV700 camera recording on MiniDV, but that's obviously just an amateur camera. Why was that camera chosen for that particular bit of the shoot? Because it got the results with it's 16:9 2/3" CCD that were more than a match to the rest of the stuff shot on Digibeta, DVCam (Sony DSR500 mainly) and DVCPro25.

I also know how much the VX1000 was used to film the BBC's 'Real Rooms' and anyone who watched 'Diarmuid's Big Adventure' recently will be fully aware it was shot almost entirely on the Sony PD150.

I just finished a DVD extra for BBC Worldwide that was shot on a DSR500, a Canon XL1 and a Sony VX1000. Using anything else would have been unprofessional because you'd not have noticed any difference on the final DVD and I'd have been wasting the clients money!

Sure if I was going to shoot drama then I'd use Digibeta, HDCam or film (though I know the BBC have shot drama on DVCam -- Tomorrow La Scala springs to mind), but for a wedding all these formats would be overkill. You need something small, preferably discreet (all the best stuff I've shot at weddings has been when people haven't realised I was filming them -- not exactly possible with a HDCam setup!)

Surely the only thing that makes a camera professional is whether it's been designed for the professional and so has everything easily accessible whilst filming -- which makes the DSR250 a professional camera, and pushes the VX1000/2000/PD150 line towards the bottom end of the professional, top end of the consumer market -- capable of great results when used with care and easily usable in a broadcast environment.

As long as it looks good on screen (which any of the cameras mentioned in this thread will) then labelling it professional or 'broadcast' is irrelevant. I've seen enough crap shot on Digibeta and enough good stuff shot on MiniDV to know that the format makes very little difference in the grand scheme of things...

Steven

I do hope Dragonslayer does not turn out to be our old friend Charisma Productions. I see CP's last post was on 13/12/03 and Dragonslayer popped up on 21/01/04. One of CP's hobbies was Barry bashing, and Dragonslayers language has a familiar ring to it.

...and the same ignorant opinions...

Steven Bagley, sorry mate, but you are so wrong, DSR250, PD150, VX2000 are NOT pro cameras, anyone who knows anything about cameras will tell you that. For a start you quote:

"Surely the only thing that makes a camera professional is whether it's been designed for the professional"

Now any idiot knows that for a lens to qualify as Professional it has to have a focusing ring that stops at infinity, anything else simply cannot be considered for any serious professional work PERIOD! Silly servo affairs are simply junk and this is quoted from Scott Billups book "Digital Moviemaking", I suggest you go and read it instead of digging yourselves into a deeper whole with all this bullshit about DSR250's been professional cameras, they are not, end of story.

It is not the person who makes a camera professional and just because these cameras pop up on the BBC certainly doesn’t make them professional; it simply makes the BBC unprofessional for budget cutting and sending reporters out with a remote control and a modified VX2000, shame on them.

Barry's original posting should have read "Prosumer camcorder recommendations" as that is what these camcorders are, they are top end amateur models that are a little too good for your average dad to go and buy, but they are way too cheap and lacking in pro features to qualify as a professional model.

Any camera that is professional will NOT have an auto-focus facility on it, why, because the company's that make professional cameras know damn well that any decent self-respecting pro would never use the stupid unusable feature, let alone actually be seen with a camera with auto-focus on it.

Next up we have Flange-Back adjustment, if your camera doesn’t have it, it's not a professional camera, why, because professionals need this god damn feature, why don't you frigging idiots get this into your miniDV pixilated heads, it don’t work like that.

I remember recently having a conversation with the chap that organises training courses for the IOV and he told me that on the camcorder 2 day courses they waist the first morning trying to convince moronic wedding videographers that they must always use manual focus and manual exposure and there are only a very few exceptions to this rule, but most argue back and say stupid crap like “but I don’t have time to focus or set the exposure manually”, well if you know what you are doing (and I for one do) then you could focus manually and set the exposure much quicker and more intelligently than the camera ever could.

Anyway it’s obvious that I’m only casting my pearls before swine on here so if you don’t want to accept it from me why don’t you go and check out Scott Billups website at: www.pixelmonger.com and drop him an email and he will tell you the same thing as me, and if you haven’t heard of Scott Billups, well that says it all really too. I strongly urge everyone with an interest in digital video production to buy Scott’s book, if there is only one book you should read then this is it, well maybe Robert Rodriguez’s book “Rebel without a Crew” coming a close second.

Anyway, I’m outta here, got important things to do like polish my VistaVision.

There is more than one type of “Teaser” in television!

Bye! don`t bother coming back if you can`t be bothered to read post`s before posting!

And on the subject of "Muppetts" I can`t imagine anything more rediculous than someone covering a wedding in a full steadicam rig! oh, there is an exception, someone who is so socially inadequet that they hide behind a pseudonym like dragonslayer.

Barry Hunter
Muppet Productions

Hi
One person masquerading as St George is the rest of us's troll...
www.google.com/search?...=define:troll
"An outrageous message posted to a newsgroup or mailing list to bait people to answer. Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a newsgroup or mailing list. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it."

paul , we know we shouldn't respond , but some people remind you of people who have already 'left' on more than one occasion.

they obviously come back because their lives are missing something , in many cases real human interaction.

i tried to behave and stay away from this one .............

Or post a 30,000 word cut'n'paste response so no one can ever find the end of the thread to respond ;)

Ahh Mr Billups, yes I've read his book and it's a fascinating read and I agree with a lot of what he says. I also disagree with some of what he says as well because like a lot of your comments it is based on very shakey technical grasp of things...

And even he will quite happily use a Sony PD150 to shoot a playstation 2 commercial or an XL1 (intercut with stuff shot on 35mm and HD) for a Discovery documentary...

Sorry you'll have to register with DV.com to read the articles, but well worth it.

I think by your argument then, we can assume that you are not a pro, this is your post is it not?

Frankly, modern video making is about choosing the right tool for the right job and that doesn't necessarily mean reaching for the Digibeta or HD. Especially if it means you can't get the shots you need to tell your story. I'd much rather have a DSR500 or better on my shoulder than use my VX1000, but I also know that if I turned up at a wedding with one of them I wouldn't make as a good a video. Sure a video geek like you or me, may notice the improvement in picture quality, but everyone else will be noticing how unnatural everyone is acting as 'video man' walks around with his 'camera'.

Strikes me that this chap is the same troll who was formerly MrWhite... Same arguments, same attitude problem.

Steven

Steady on Barry(get it ) I do use a steadicam rig at weddings(not the whole day) and it's not that ridiculous, the clients love the end result

John.

LOL. First time I've ever heard it called that!

Sorry Steelej!No offence meant to you & others like your self.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

BTW Don`t know what kind of weather you guys had yesterday but here in the English Riviera we had absolutley gorgeous weather, made my wedding video a dream (almost) with a setting on the coast with a Bride & Groom that were easy to work with. The hotel manager commented that that was the most glamourous ever seen at the hotels weddings.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

, Don't worry Barry, no offense taken

John.

Hope you have got your DSR250 camera by now.
It has taken a lot of testing and head scratching but now I may have some answers. There are two settings which may produce distortion / clipping.

1 - The wind noise cut switch may produce distortion of high frequecies (treble). I suggest you switch this off as I am sure you are using proper wind-gag.

2 - There is a audio volume control switch under the lense. The pot controls the level of the entire left channel and is not an input attenuator.

My problem arose because of the way I set my audio. The left channel is always in auto and connected to on-board mic. The right channel is used for external / radio mics. (Right for remote!)

The distortion is evident in my camera when left channel is auto and
1 - the front audio level is not fully up. The channel is attenuated and the auto control tries to compensate this. It seems that the agc response time also changes. So a sudden change in input level, like some one thumping the table, will cause clipping because auto control seems to be bit sluggish with this setting.

2- When audio is in auto, operation of the wind-cut switch tends to distort high frequecies. Again the combination of sluggish agc may give clipping as well as HF distortion.

Hope all that makes sense.

Thanks Mahesh! I`ll play around with these controls.

We bought 2 DSR250`s & used them in anger last saturday at our neices`s wedding & found them great! Although, noy being used to the audio on these camera`s in comparason with the VX9000`s I found that the quieter moments lower than that when using the VX9000. I set the audio in the menu to -12 & that seemed a little better. I also have a Senheiser K6 + Rifle Mic, didn`t use it last sat but someone suggested that the mic supplied with the camera may just be a "Cheapy" in comparason with the VX9000 on board mic, which I have always found very good.

Do you or anyone else have any suggestions on this subject?

Other than that we were both very pleased with their operation & using DSM 98w batteries, hardly made a dent in the capacity of the one cell used.

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions

I agree with you Barry. The mic is a bit naff. I had better audio from my DSR200. The microphone on DSR250 appears to be low level mic. I did some tests with DSR300 and compared to on-board mic of DSR300, this one is about 6dB (50%).

Hi,

You will find an interesting angle on Pro video work in this months “Camcorder User” written by a real professional cameraman called Robin Lambert.

Robin has broken his leg and has been recuperating in front of the TV as there is little else he is capable of doing at the moment.

He has taken the time to study and analyse the footage presented to him on about a dozen satellite stations and he’s amazed at the amount of programmes that have been made using the DV format and some of the other DV formats.

He sites the material used, i.e the quality of the production which have been edited on PC’s and the content in these programmes as being key to producing a high quality programme, rather than the resolution of the image.

Lets face it sound and script are more important than picture in most cases and we can almost take it for granted that well shot DV is good enough quality for reality-TV and documentaries these days.

A professional production is the most important issue and the pro camera argument is a non-starter as far as making documentaries is concerned, assuming one is using at least a DV camcorder that is.

Jim Bird.

Horses for courses, I'd say. For some work a small camera is the obvious way to go, on other work they cause serious compromises.

I speak as somebody who not along ago was required to use a PD100 for what turned out to be not very good reasons. The lighting was as difficult as it gets and would have been challenging with a pro camera - with the PD100 it severely compromised what could be achieved, and even what we did do I was most unhappy with. In the past I'd had a few good experiences with a PD100, but that shoot taught me quite a lesson. Issues were lens coverage, colourimetry in mixed lighting, dynamic range of lighting and reduced control with rapidly changing light.levels

Gentlemen, as someone who has feet firmly planted in the low consumer end of this game, and in the very high top broadcast end as well, I'd like to pour some soothing balm on the arguments.

It doesn't really matter what we or the manufacturers call the kit, consumer/pro/hi-end. It's all irrelevant. What makes kit consumer or pro is the way it's used, not what it costs. I've seen splendid stuff produced on VX1000 and rubbish produced on HDC950. It's the eye of the photographer that makes it work, not the kit. What you get with more expensive kit is extra flexibility to bend the kit to do what you want, but by far the greatest influence on what you get is how you use the kit you have.

Correct, agreed.

Barry's made his decision to buy and is happy with his purchase. It's a bit late now to offer alternatives, this only puts doubt in his mind.

Time to let him enjoy his new camera.

Thanks Busby! We used them last saturday on a wedding & were very pleased with the result! With 2 DSR250`s & 2 x VX2000`s I consider that a good setup for what we do.

I think I need to work on the audio as I`ve already said, not being used to the setup with XLR in! It seemed quieter than the VX9000, I set the audio to -12. I`d welcome any useful suggestions, I`ve got a Sen K6 + Rifle unit, but maybe that`s to directional for general work?

Any thoughts guys?

Barry Hunter
Videos for all Occasions